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 Tyrak Reworked

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Bardan

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PostSubject: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:48 pm

Alright, so I'm picking up the 3rd party races which are just *awful* to try to fix them up a bit, and get them more in line with the whole TA:K elemental profile.

Orison - these guys are some ridiculous amalgamation of left-over and poorly converted units from the game. Garbage. Even has spaceship... thing. I did notice that their lodestone, when destroyed, leaves wreckage on the sacred site which cannot be cleaned up. It can be destroyed, though, but it removes the sacred site altogether.

Solaron - these guys have a little more going on, but not a lot. At least they have a solid grasp on direction. There is a pervasive, if strange, Sun/Star theme going here. With some work, it could be really neat. The creator at least went through the effort of making what appears to be a custom 3do for their tier 1 factory. Which is more than Orison did, or Tyrak.

And Tyrak - these guys are clearly a sort of rival claimant to the throne of Taros and the Underworld. I always had a bit more of a 'spirit/soul' feeling than the out-and-out fire and necromancy of Taros, even though nearly every unit is bone/skeleton. The monarch, Xorn, has a spell 'soul drain' which might be where I get the impression...

Anyway, I've started flipping through the .fbi files to try to balance Tyrak so it's not complete garbage. So far, these are my notes.

-Xorn's buildtree exclusively uses Taros buildpics, and has no defensive structure.

Tier 1
-Two reasonably capable melee characters... both Aramon Swordsmen rips. Why?
-Bowman might need to be slowed down or damage reduced...
-Dark Gryphon is *slow* and weak to boot. Any reason why the Gryphon (including Zhon's) sucks so much with accuracy?

Pyrotower - ~3k, too effective?

Tier 2
-Reaper's attacks need icons
-Death Kight's 2nd/3rd attacks unavailable (till vet?)

This race needs a \"****\" DIVINE LODESTONE!
The Divine Dragon is very weak and only has 2 attacks - no flame breath means the base attack requires no mana and is as powerful as other dragon's 2nd rank attacks. What would be the 3rd attack, the wave, is neat... it turns all units to stone, but does not affect buildings. There is also no animation for the wave.

ALSO! Sage! I know you were having issues with your Weather Witch resurrecting Executioners or something, but couldn't figure out how to designate the unit to-be-resurrected. Well, the Skeleton King of Tyrak resurrects corpses into 'Unworthy Dead' guys. Maybe have a look there?
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:36 pm

I think I have a problem with scriptor overall because of any change I try to make. I'll keep it in mind tho.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:06 am

And continuing my critique/notepad of Tyrak.

The Pyromancer Tower is most definitely overpowered. It fires in rapid bursts with a fire attack that, um, splatters?  Anyway, AoE on contact.  Perhaps I could rework it so that each burst requires a certain amount of mana, so rapid-fire isn't an issue so long as it has a chance to reload... Combine that with a reduction in damage, I think it could work.  It is a straight rip from the Mage Tower of Taros, so a new 3do would need to be implemented.

My thoughts are either a Veruna Watch Tower (with stone texture) with a rotunda overtop... something less pointy-ended than this:


Or simply a covered version of an Aramon Guard Tower (with dart stone texture), like this but all dark and foreboding.


Of course, I'm not terribly certain I'd want to keep it "Fire" in nature if I'm to succeed in driving it into a specific elemental existence... What about "Ghost Tower" which shoots not fire, but something like green ectoplasm (the animation for a Mage Archer's paralyze...)?
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:20 am

The 'Divine Builder' - the Warlock - was nine kinds of broken...

Somehow, in the .fbi, he had two Weapon 1, so it canceled out. His single attack was a lightning attack at about 20 range, so I've fixed that.

Meanwhile (and before I changed the first thing), the Dragon wasn't in the build tree. Not sure why. I could still build the Guardian and Hellbringer, but not the Dragon for some reason. And again, there needs to be a Divine Lodestone, but... that's for another time.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:03 am

hey i like solaron its my fav DL race even though it needs sight badly i never got the hang of orison its to confusing you have a point with both of them tryack needs divines building the T2 building gives +30 mana so the psercould spam them to no end and solaron only needs sight and more infantry

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:11 pm

Alright, mini-update.

I've removed the odd 2nd melee unit from tier 1; currently he is beefed up and buildable by the Monarch as an early sort of guard.  One hit from these guys kills a Zhon Hunter.  Nice early punch, but the cost for just three of these guys could have purchased a tier 1 factory, give or take.

I've also moved the Hellhound to tier 1; trying to supplement the early diversity.

I have yet to test thoroughly, but I've redone all of the stats for tier 1 and all structures.  I'll need to play a few games with them to make sure they're not broken. For example, the tier 1 undead maceman is just about par-for-par with the Aramon swordsman, but slightly more durable and packs a slightly heavier punch. Meanwhile, the tier 1 bowman moves and attacks faster than the Aramon archer, but does less than half the damage per shot. I've left the Dark Gryphon (now 'ghost = 1;') as tier 1 as well, and made him a rather fast-mover, but with a very weak attack and can't take much damage. But hey, he costs 2-3x what a scout costs - he's not meant to be really effective, just to give an early aerial arm.

For Tier 2, I've found a few problems in certain attacks, such as the Death Knight's mana problem - AND the Skeleton King's.  The attacks required more mana than the unit had to start with, which was bizarre.  I know it was for veteran status benefits, but still.  The Skeleton King, though, was impossible because he had no mana at all in his .fbi, but his attack required it. Hopefully I've got that sorted.

I've also reworked (but yet to test) the Undead Ranger and some other guys.  The cost-benefit analysis made them either useless or brokenly powerful.  Including the Dragon.  I went now just to test this guy, but somehow I've made a mistake in the labeling somewhere, because instead of Bone Dragon, it gave me Taros's Black Dragon.  Whoops!  Anyway, reworked the stats on this guy to make him competitive with the other dragons.  Sort of.  His 3rd attack is a wave stone attack which won't affect any buildings.  Thought I might expand the wave's radius to compensate, make it REALLY nasty for units since it's not so great against buildings.  I also have NOT yet incorporated the 2x modifier for the 2nd attack against dragons (other dragons DO have this)... not sure if I will; since the 3rd attack is against units, I might make the 2nd attack 2x or so against structures.  Maybe make the 1st attack 1.5x against Dragons... thoughts?

Meanwhile, Zadoc Hellbringer has been upgraded to God status.  I plan on doubling the size of the .3do model to account for this promotion.  His deity attack (the big scary one) I hope to be some sort of Hail Storm variant.  I'll have to toy with that a bit, see if I can't make it special.  I'm thinking some sort of orange/blue shard rain.

I have also redone MANY of the buildpics.  Not all of them, but any that were total rips from other Taros units have been replaced.  I have yet to fix some of the .3do's (not sure if I have the skill) in this manner, but I'll give it a shot later on.

I've also noticed that, due to having no real aerial units besides the weak tier 1 Dark Gryphon and the tier 3/4 (?) Bone Dragon, these guys do NOT have many flying abilities. And, perhaps far more importantly, they have no counter on any map with much water. So no anti-ship faculties, and no transport abilities. I'm not sure what I'll do on the former (maybe pull in some moderate Kraken-like sea critter), but for the latter I'll be making a structure capable of transporting units a VERY long distance. While the AI player won't have much use for it, it's something to move around troops. Will probably call it... Void Portal or some nonsense. Think StarGate!
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:46 pm

wow i never noticed them problems when i played tyrak you must be the old creater of the race or something?

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:52 pm

No.  I just know what makes for a good game.  Broken races do not.

With that said, I am actually in the final stages of the rework.  I dedicated most of my free day today to fixing all sorts of issues.  There are still some things to work out, some minor balancing, but I'm close.

I did, however, just have Kingdoms crash with an unspecified error as I was overwhelming the Aramon base.  There were only 5 types of units involved, so it might be related to one of them.  But I doubt it.  I've seen them all die hundreds of times without error.  It might have been... nothing.

The Hell Hound now explodes when killed. I need the right animation for that though. I'm thinking a small green shockring. Any ideas on how I add that?

There was once two tier 1 melee. This is no longer the case, and one of them I made into the "Vorpal Guard" - a limit of 10 or 12 (can't remember) buildable by the monarch, Xorn. Just to give it something neat. They can act as a solid spearhead for a Tier 1 semi-rush with the Skeleton Maceman, Undead Bowman, Hell Hound (who gets a bonus to structures, btw), and the Dark Gryphon (who now doesn't totally suck, but costs a bit more).

Meanwhile, most of Tier 2 has been rebalanced dramatically. The Skeletal Fighter is now the small "Bone Golem;" speedy but weak, good for fodder. He is balanced against the gigantic "Undead Giant" (he might be bigger than a Stone Giant, actually) who carries a big \"***\" mace to bash things - formerly known as the Undead Knight.

Alongside them are the Rift Spawn (formerly Mist Demon) who gives them close-in rapid-fire support, and the Undead Ranger who act as snipers for long-range and explosive-type shots. I'm still trying to figure out how to make the Death Knight not suck... he was built around this idea of a Headless Horseman (his 3rd attack is an icon of a jack'o'lantern), but it misses or doesn't do anything and I can't fathom why. He is certainly not a star combat specialist, getting killed easily by just 2-3 tier 1 if you're not careful with him.

As well, there are the Reapers who now can cloak for an unlimited duration. I want to say Vaerun was able to somehow get AI units to cloak by default - does anyone know how to do that? The Reaper is good close-in support for the other chief of Tier 2, the Skeleton King... I'll be renaming him soon. Anyway, the Reapers get a bonus against Tier 1 enemies, and the Skeleton King can reanimate corpses quickly into Unworthy Dead troops. These guys are Barbarian rips, so fair melee without much pomp.

I cannot, however figure out anywhere how the Skeleton King reanimates Unworthy Dead. Does ANYONE know where the key to this lies? It isn't to do with the canbuild folders or the .fbi files. My only other assumption is either buried in the .cob scripts (how can I read those, btw?) or maybe in some .tdf or other. Clues, anyone?

Anyway, filling out the race is the Tier 3 builder Warlock with 3 spells of varying fun. He can build a Divine Lodestone (total rip from Taros until I can figure out how to build one in 3do), the Crypt Guardian (I think is what it's called) - a heavy-axe wielding guy. Not sure if Tyrak needs another tough melee, but he was there to begin with so I'm not sure if I want to take him out. The final treat is the Nether Dragon.

The Nether Dragon is a diverging take on the Divine Dragons of Darien. While other races have a single dragon which costs between 40-50k mana, Tyrak can call upon three! dragons at about 18-19k apiece. But don't be fooled. They are fast flyers, and can cause considerable damage amongst the ranks, but there is no way they can stand up to another Divine Dragon 1-vs-1, and maybe not even 2-vs-1. Their 1st attack is a weaker firebreath than other dragons, their 2nd attack does not carry the bonus vs dragons (which the other dragons themselves enjoy) instead gaining a bonus vs structures, and the 3rd attack is a stone wave, affecting only those units which are not immune to stoning. This is called balancing, kids!

The only thing I'm not satisfied with currently is the Pyromancer tower. This is the tier 1 defensive structure, but... I don't know. I implemented the mana to reign in it's destructiveness, but it's still pretty mean. And for fairly cheap at ~3300 mana. I'll have to play a few games against the Tyrak AI to finally work out the kinks.

Meanwhile, I'm absolutely thrilled with the almost top-down rework of the buildpics. I left only about 4 or 5 untouched, the rest replaced. However, there are some with tones a little too light and some with tones a little too dark. Does anyone know a quick way of fixing that? I know you can't do it in MSPaint, but maybe Paint.net?
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:49 pm

Use an explodeas in the fbi file and change the explosionclass to green_shockring. Look at the Illohir Efreet.

For auto cloak units use init_cloaked =1 in the fbi.

The Skeleton King uses a startbuild() script with these in the cob as well:
StartBuilding()
{
set INBUILDSTANCE to 1;
building = TRUE;
if( !aiming )
{
call-script startbuild();
restored = FALSE;
}
return;
}

StopBuilding()
{
set INBUILDSTANCE to 0;
building = FALSE;
return;
}

Not much more than that. Does not use a BuildControl() part.

Good Luck!

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:11 am

I KNEW you were still lurking this place from time to time. Do you still use Skype/MSN? Would love to take up our chats like old times. Thanks for the cloak thing, I knew it was possible somehow. However, how do you extract the scripting from the .cob?

And lastly... that portion of the script doesn't indicate WHAT he builds/reanimates, does it? I'm trying to figure out what dictates the end-product of a reanimation. Dark Priest => Ghouls, Dark Hand => Liches, etc. Then Elsin resurrects as whatever the corpses originally was. Where's the difference, exactly?

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:24 am

In the fbi file there is a line: animatetype = whatever; Elsin has in his fbi file: canresurrect = 1;

Let me see if I still have MSN.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:24 am

Zadok Hellbringer is freakin' huge. A little too huge. But that's not the problem. He crashed the game, but I was pretty sure I had incorrectly organized his deity attack, so that's on me.

And note, this is only the 2nd time Tyrak has crashed. I think that's pretty good, considering how much I've been changing and testing.

The Rift Spawn/Mist Demon model won't shrink, though. What the hell?

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:19 am

I replaced Zadok's deity attacks with Creon's for the time being, just so he should work properly.

Still can't get the Rift Spawn/Mist Demon 3do to shrink...

I've played several games AS Tyrak, but only a couple against them. The latest one was a 1 vs 3, yet for more than half an hour the AI tried to build Zadok and not much else. Certainly no factories, meaning they just stagnated. I kept having to attack them just to break the conjuring.

However, in the first game, a 3v3, had only 2 of them building deities while the 3rd Tyrak went... fucking... nuts. It was a relatively quick game, but they spread across the map like a virus and had the neighboring Aramon AI struggling for survival the entire time. The Veruna AI sent multiple expeditions into the Tyrak flank, relieving some pressure on Aramon but not enough to really make a dent. Every Verunan expedition was cut to pieces seemingly in moments. Only timely arrival of my (Zhon) aerial forces helped keep Aramon kicking while I took out the other 2 Tyrak AIs building deities.

So... I think I'm on to something at least. Now, if I can get Xorn to stop building Zadok immediately, we'll have a real fight on our hands!

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:23 am

Bardan wrote:
Of course, I'm not terribly certain I'd want to keep it "Fire" in nature if I'm to succeed in driving it into a specific elemental existence...  What about "Ghost Tower" which shoots not fire, but something like green ectoplasm (the animation for a Mage Archer's paralyze...)?

Overuse of "..." and the amazing combination

...)?

are in the rules of proper punctuation of English? Just curious.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:23 am

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/61579/where-does-the-question-mark-go-inside-or-outside-the-parentheses yes Landherr they are
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:47 am

$ Landherr wrote:
Bardan wrote:
Of course, I'm not terribly certain I'd want to keep it "Fire" in nature if I'm to succeed in driving it into a specific elemental existence...  What about "Ghost Tower" which shoots not fire, but something like green ectoplasm (the animation for a Mage Archer's paralyze...)?

Overuse of "..." and the amazing combination

...)?

are in the rules of proper punctuation of English? Just curious.

Please do not come trolling me because you lack the care to articulate yourself. And yes, I do enjoy the ellipsis, what of it? It is to indicate an omission usually, but I like to use it for pauses in thought or trailing off into silence as well, thus the omission is my lack of a conviction to word choice. Don't judge, don't troll, don't bother me.

Now, back to Tyrak.

Unfortunately I've had to leave town for a couple of days. Seems there might be some delay in my graduation, though my original audit didn't indicate so. Probably some paperwork lost in the mix. I hope. Anyway, I still have my iPad so I can at least work on a proper Tyrak AI so Xorn doesn't go and build the deity Zadok as soon as the game starts. I also noticed an overabundance of tier 1 builders, though that in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing as it all but guarantees adequate exploitation of resources and expansion of industrial base, meaning more units produced. Though when I slammed into a sizable Tyrak base the other day, I noticed far too many Dark Gryphons. It's not that they're a problem, but a more even balance might help.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:04 pm

I didn't judge, you trolled me, you bothered me.

I made a question. Punks lol.

Rachy-DB wrote:
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/61579/where-does-the-question-mark-go-inside-or-outside-the-parentheses yes Landherr they are
Ok but that talks about question mark outside, not 'suspension points'. Well, I'm sick since sunday now and I have to be trolled by scrubs, can't really think too much right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:41 pm

landherr you made 3 posts* about that nothing, omg ;/

Edit
*in 3 other type topics, thats is little spammy

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:03 pm

Would it be completely ridiculous to form the AI to concentrate predominately on long-range units and rapid-assault? Would that setup potentially be worthwhile against, say, the less-fortify-happy Taros or Zhon?

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:45 am

Work-In-Progress


// Tyrak weight
// *Unhappy with name
// **To be renamed

weight TarBONE 5 //Undead Giant
weight TARcrypg 1 //Netherguard
weight TARCRYPT 5 //Dark Asylum*
weight TarDknight 3 //Death Knight
weight TarHHound 6 //HellHound
weight TARMAGUS 1 //Zadok Hellbringer
weight TARMREAP 5 //Reaper
weight tarskelef 5 //Bone Golem
weight TARSKELW 8 //Undead Maceman
weight TARSKING 1 //Wight Lord
weight TARUDR 3 //Undead Warden (?)
weight TARUND 0 //Unworthy Thrall
weight TARYCANT 3 //Bone Cannon*
weight TARYCRYP 7 //Crypt
weight TARYDGYP 3 //Dark Gryphon
weight TARYDRAG 1 //Nether Dragon
weight TARYEYE 1 //Ether Eye
weight TARYFTOW 3 //Netherfire Tower
weight TARYGTOH 0 //Gate
weight tarylod2 5 //Divine Lodestone
weight tarylode 10 //Lodestone
weight TARYMIST 4 //Rift Demon
weight TARYSKAR 7 //Undead Bowman
weight TARYSKWA 1 //Vorpal Guard
weight TARYTTBD 8 //Dark Servant
weight TARYWALL 0 //Wall
weight TARZMAS 4 //Forsaken

limit TARBONE 10
limit TARcrypg 6
limit TARCRYPT 8
limit TarDknight 10
limit TarHHound 15
limit TARMAGUS 1
limit TARMREAP 12
limit tarskelef 15
limit TARSKELW = nolimit
limit TARSKING 3
limit TARUDR 6
limit TARUND = nolimit
limit TARYCANT 8
limit TARYCRYP 8
limit TARYDGYP 15
limit TARYDRAG 3
limit TARYEYE 5
limit TARYFTOW 10
limit TARYGTOH 0
limit tarylod2 = nolimit
limit tarylode = nolimit
limit TARYMIST 12
limit TARYSKAR = nolimit
limit TARYSKWA 12
limit TARYTTBD = nolimit
limit TARYWALL 0
limit TARZMAS =nolimit


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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:07 am

Just got my \"***\" handed to me by a team of the TyrakWIP. Not everything is working as I'd like, but we're now down to details and optional additions.

Still need to:

-add/balance Wight Lord Attacks (melee, target, mini-wave)
-find-tune Rift Demon weapon animation (lightning explosion upon impact), and how do I make it lob at about 35 degrees?
-adjust Crypt, "Asylum," Bone Cannon 3dos
-adjust NetherfireTower 3do, projectile (not showing up), and aim (hits behind target)
-give Giant swimming
-create Death Talon, Banshee (?), and Cthulhu units
-add Tyrak music (foreboding and chaotic) (?)
-copy/convert all stone.3do to frozen.3do

After Playtesting:
-check Xorn spellpower...
-priority switch per costs, ttbd fac2 & def2, fac2 giant/demon
-reaper scripted as builder? Lihr? Needs weaponpics
-Bone Giant Veteran Textures needed (chest goes clear at silver?)
-dragon's speed, mana recharge checked, 3rd attack "= 1;"
-warden's 3rd explosion animation & range?
-rift demon .3do tail & damage/range
-wight lord need spell change & mana (why freeze up on attacks?), needs weaponpics
-death knight's attack 'emit' is on flail, so swings wide every time
-vorpal guard and netherguard both need nerfed; can survive wave & assassin knife is a scratch, respectfully

For questions:
-file naming conventions
-
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:36 pm

Tyrak Build Tree
*needed

Xorn
-Lodestone
-Wall
-Gate (X)
-Gate (Y)*
-Crypt
-Netherfire Tower
-Netherguard Blade

Crypt (rename & 3do)
-Ether Eye
-Undead Macemen
-Undead Bowman
-Imp*
-Hell Hound
-Dark Gryphon
-Dark Summoner (rename)

Dark Summoner
-Lodestone
-Wall
-Crypt
-Netherfire Tower (3do)
-Bone Cannon (3do)
-Dark Asylum

Dark Asylum (rename & 3do)
-Bone Golem
-Reaper
-Death Talon*
-Rift Demon
-Undead Giant
-Netherguard Warden
-Dark Summoner
-Forsaken

Forsaken
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Bardan

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:40 pm

Something went horribly wrong. Zadok Hellbringer one-shot'd the Ghost of Garacaius...

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:57 pm

Do you have a download? I'd like to test it.

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$_ARTHAN

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:00 pm

Bardan wrote:
Something went horribly wrong.  Zadok Hellbringer one-shot'd the Ghost of Garacaius...

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   

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