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Vaerun

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:53 pm

Skeletal maceman? appears to not have a corpse line with a corresponding entry in the features/corpses folder. Checking the script, the script calls for a corpse on any damage that is not an explosion.

In regards to aimtolerance, the smaller the number the more accurate and more time the unit takes to fire.
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Bardan

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:28 pm

Vaerun wrote:
Skeletal maceman? appears to not have a corpse line with a corresponding entry in the features/corpses folder. Checking the script, the script calls for a corpse on any damage that is not an explosion.

In regards to aimtolerance, the smaller the number the more accurate and more time the unit takes to fire.

Good to see you, sir!

So providing a suitable corpse 3do will (hopefully) fix the situation?  Still doesn't quite explain why the game crashes when an enemy building is destroyed.

Smaller aim tolerance is more accurate? I'll be damned...
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:21 pm

The fireatwillrandom = 1; command goes in the main unit info section. Firedemons and stonegiants sometimes hesitate to attack, so adding this line fixes the issue.

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Vaerun

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:10 am

Bardan wrote:
Smaller aim tolerance is more accurate? I'll be damned...

More accurate with Ballistic type weapons; Guided and Line of Sight not so sure. However, they use aimtolerance so I am assuming aimtolerance also affects targeting speed as the higher the number, the faster a unit can get a shot off without that hesitation and vice versa. Sage is right about the fireatwillrandom line as that does help with hesitation as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:28 am

Interesting. Quick question, then, as I have never considered the difference. Ballistic is an object propelled at the target (cannonball, arrow, etc), guided is a homing projectile, but what is line of sight? Would that include things like lightning or regular fireballs?

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:30 pm

What is difference between line of sight and ballistic ? (I mean in physic game etc)
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:17 pm

Cannoneers and archers would be considered ballistic units. The weapon simply leaves the unit until it hits the opponent; there is no connection with the host. On the other hand, a line of sight weapon does have a connection with the host by filling that gap between the host and the opponent. A lighting or fire breath attack would be a good example. I think that any weapon with an emit time would be considered a line of sight attack. And if you are wondering about "guided" weapons, an example of this would be Kirenna's bubble or Lokken's fireball; their attacks follow their opponents no matter where they are.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:16 pm

So I went to begin making all of the x_frozen and x_stone .3dos for Tyrak units, when I realized I didn't know which texture to use. Well, to find out, I went to load up an existing unit's frozen/stone 3dos for reference. Imagine my surprise, however, when I can't FIND any of them. So I'm a little confused. Where are they kept?

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:27 pm

Lol, you do not need frozen or stoned 3dos. The game applies a gaf/taf effect of stone or frozen to the base model depending on the stoned/frozen tdf.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:53 pm

I was beginning to wonder. So do I simply indicate, as in the fbi for the Aramon Broadsword, the following?

frozen = arabroad_frozen;
...
stone = arabroad_stone;

And that be it?

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:20 pm

I'm wondering that too since there are stone and frozen files for each unit under features/ all worlds.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:00 am

Regarding Ballistic weapons, they are affected by gravity in the game whereas Line of Sight not at all and Guided somewhat affected.

And frozen and stoned features, that's all that it takes. So, you can make some units immune to those features by not putting those lines in the fbi and so on.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:30 am

That makes so much \"****\" sense, and my life easier.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:16 pm

You know, I've been trying to figure out the mana cost formula Cavedog used.

Surely, they had to have at least some basic rubric for it, right?

For example, for any speed faster than velocity of 1, it costs 10 mana per .1 velocity.
Or perhaps, 1 mana per 1 damage (either inflicted or maxdamage).

Just curious, but half of it makes no \"****\" sense. Has anyone figured this sort of thing out?

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:16 pm

About mana cost, comparing to anything
they just make it to "strongest/usefull" unit,
anyway it's the easiest to compare cost mana with health.
(from my brain without looking on stats) (crusade balance 3.0b)
here is list, its might be usefull during making new races specially if they are gonna be "compare" to original ones)
Spoiler:
 

btw i quess they didn't use any formula, they just like weird numbers, which can annoy somebody, or fascinate others (why they didn't round mana cost to every 5 dunno)


Last edited by $ MalinOMW on Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:26 pm

See, part of the reason I expected some sort of crude formula was because of the unrounded numbers...

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:29 pm

[UNITINFO]
{
bankscale = 1.75;
bloodcolor1 = 160 35 0;
bloodcolor2 = 170 40 0;
bloodcolor3 = 180 30 5;
bodytype = wood;
buildangle = 4096;
buildcost = 11194;
buildtime = 675;
canattack = 1;
canguard = 1;
canstop = 1;
cantbecaptured = 1;
cantbefrozen = 1;
cantbestoned = 1;
category = ARA BALLISTIC ATTACK;
copyright = Copyright 1999 Humongous Entertainment. All rights reserved.;
corpse = aratre_dead;
damagecategory = siege;
defaultmissiontype = guard_nomove;
description = Aramon;
experiencepoints = 61;
footprintx = 7;
footprintz = 7;
healtime = 1.40625;
maxdamage = 2975;
maxslope = 15;
maxwaterdepth = 0;
name = Trebuchet;
notargetcategory = FLY;
objectname = ARATRE;
pitchscale = 1.5;
shadowgaf = shadows;
shootme = 1;
side = ARA;
sightdistance = 200;
soundcategory = ARATRE;
soundclass = ARATRE;
standingunitorder = 1;
stone = aratre_stone;
tedclass = Aramon;
unitname = ARATRE;
unitnumber = 41;
version = 1;
yardmap = o;
}

[WEAPON1]
{
areaofeffect = 100;
damagetype = explosion;
edgeeffectiveness = 0.1;
explosionclass = large dust puff;
gravityadjustment = 4.2;
minrange = 500;
name = Cannon;
noairweapon = 1;
range = 2700;
reloadtime = 7;
shadowart = weaponshad02;
shadowgaf = shadows;
soundhitclass = rock;
type = Ballistic;
waterexplosionclass = large water explosion;
weaponart = cannbmed;
weaponvelocity = 1150;

[DAMAGE]
{
default = 2001;
}
}

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:47 pm

weaponrange = 2700
minrange = 500
reloadtime = 7
weapondamage = 2001
maxdamage = 2975
buildcost = 11194

These, I find, are the major elements.

range + mdamage + wdamage - minrange = 7176* 1.7 (reload) = 12199

That's just 1005 more than the recorded buildcost. So I might be onto something...

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:24 pm

don't try find something which not exists xD

without crusade balance firedemon cost 1189
with 1889, they just needed to nerf firedemon, so they add his price,

Edit same with stone giant 2951 price without CB, 3951 with CB, (but in stone giant they reduce also health, (10310 to 7310 with CB, and change some other stats)

stats for fire demon

Crusade ON
Spoiler:
 
Crusade off (campaign, original stats)
Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:30 pm

On My Way also with CB off any taros player can just mass exocutioners with out even haven to use T2 or T3i mean i used exe against a group of knights with CB off only lost 4 exe while the person i was playing against lost all his knights about 15 knights

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:57 pm

@Malin, that doesn't argue against there being no formula, it simply points to the possibility and even likelihood of two formulas. After all, the units of OTAK were made prior to the advent of Creon. With the introduction of Iron Plague units, there was a desire to make the expansion campaign a sort of "harder" or more veteran campaign (TA expansions do the same), but these same strengths made the multiplayer impossible. Therefore, two formulas were required - one for more single-player viability, and one for multiplayer options that made the experience even more balanced for each player to have the same relative chance in competitions.

As a rule, I play without CB, thus my experiences might be a tad flawed. I will have to check CB and might therefore alter my opinions. Though, I might mention, the only difference in those stats other than cost is healtime. This might be a design for the player to put more stock in certain units based on their strengths in multiplayer, as opposed to simply relying on a numbers rush. After all, I know I would prefer a handful of Fire Demons in multiplayer over a small horde of executioners... This is not the case in single player.
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:08 am

yea CB is projected for balance game (ex. before 1 stone giant almost solo 2 jungle orcs(how long range unit can "almost*" solo same price melee units, range units should always easly die in any solo situation)
Spoiler:
 

ahh you should play something multiplayer to see also second world of TA:K (not only campaign skirmish one) (you probably would see something "new" uses for units)

i think(no one can proof that its true or not) that cavedog just give cost around for every units, and then they think hmm 354 looks more sexy for troll than 350 or 355

maybe without CB there was some formula (some units were totally pathetic(jungle orc), other too strong(stone giant, fire demon)
other units are totally useless the best ex. mana ampiler(on big sacred stone) give bonus +1 income to cost 467,6 mana, mechanic give +1 income to cost 355

but for sure in CB there is no any formula, they just add/subtract nice amount of mana,
firedemon get higher price 700 mana, stone giant 1000,
drake get lower 500 mana, assasin 1000,
ok in divine lodestone they make it more creative
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:36 pm

As for the stone giant, you cant look at him as a regular ranged unit, like a crossbowman or amazon knight. He is essentially a defensive structure for Zhon, albeit a (very slow) moveable one. As with any defensive 'structure,' he is not meant to be used solo but with some minor support. After all, you wouldn't put an Aramon Stronghold out in the middle of nowhere by itself.

But I see your point, you might be right in that there is no CrusadesBalance formula. I'll have to check it out more in-depth after school.

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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:44 pm

yea but i mention more about how overpowered is stonegiant without CB, that he can even solo melee (same cost) units which shouldn't happen
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PostSubject: Re: Tyrak Reworked   Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:57 pm

Ah, I suppose so. He could definitely trounce enemy fortifications if protected and at maximum LoS.

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