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 CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS

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DeeKay
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PostSubject: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:33 am

ROC TOO OP

Taros Ghost Ship - 804 Mana Cost

maxdamage = 2300; //1 bubble and its gone
cruisealt = 50; //melee units should be able to hit that
maxvelocity = 2; //slower than lokken
transportsize = 9; //can carry only goblinsized units
transportsizecapacity = 40; //cool you can carry a few units, but make sure you'll have time to drop all of them before the gs dies, ty

Zhon Roc - 1019 Mana Cost

maxdamage = 5500; //survives waves
cruisealt = 200; //all archers become blind (maybe its the sunlight, too op)
maxvelocity = 3.9; //drops at the speed of light
transportsize = 16; //can carry units bigger than my ****
transportsizecapacity = 72; //carries your whole empire inside it

Suggestions: Delete Roc from the game. Kappa

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Nightfall



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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:13 am

Call it bias since I'm a Taros player, but IMO if roc is tier 3 it should cost at least 50 percent more than the Ghost Ship (considering all the advantages)
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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:14 pm

stop playing soviet race, turn into Aramon, you won't have problems with rocs then

btw, without crusade balance roc cost little less, and have like half hp

anyway they are too other type units

Ghost ship, make probably taros the fastest expand race on weird shape maps

Rocs are for drops, which make a bit usefull Zhon, without them(or nerfed, like not surviving wave), nobody would play that race (they don't give any other reason lol, even Soviets are better)

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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:21 pm

So I'm forced to play with a race that I don't like to win? No, thx.

Yeah, without CB it seems a lot more balanced: 819 cost (equal to gs), 2100 hp (less than gs), though its faster and can carry more units. Maybe if it keeps the price 1019, increases the hp a little bit 3000, it'll be fine.

Drops make zhon useful? Hmm ok. And other races fucking overpowered (taros fire mage/lich/witch/rat drop, aramon aco drops). Maybe with a nerf Roc will seem more GS, use for expand and well-planned drops.

Zhon is fine without drops, you can play with only drops, or use some invasion strategy with spirit wolves + hunters + stone giants + totems. They are strong units. Zhon aren't in short only drops.

With the nerf it'll still be good, it's not because it won't survive a wave that it's not good. Not everyone waves a roc, and you can \"****\' up your base by doing that. Rocs will still be fast. 4900 HP doesn't survive waves and it's still op. You'll probably still be able to drop acolytes because of Rocs' speed.

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$ MalinOMW

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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:36 pm

about health
wave have dmg around 5k, like 4500-5500, i think that i saw one time that wave destroyed roc
(or all units have health around +/-, dunno what is +/-)

nah with weaker rocs, taros would be better in almost any condition comparing to zhon

Rocs need to be a bit op in own category (like treb) (imo)

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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:43 pm

Taros better than zhon? Wtf. It would be an equal matchup. Hunters + Stone Giants vs Zombies + Fire Demons. Simple as that. Kamikaze Rats can make it unbalanced, though Zhon has undead killer units (Spirit Wolves). Zhon has death totem too which is very good. Taros has Fire Mages. So it depends how the game goes.

But the point, is that Zhon's Roc, together with another race (taros and aramon) it becomes overpowered, with monarch drops and those weird things.

About wave killing rocs, it's like when a unit deal more damage than it's supposed to do, like super wave or idk, when giant orm sometimes hit kill a zhon lodestone, sometimes not, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:20 pm

DeeKay wrote:
Zhon has death totem too which is very good.

It has as more attack range than a Mage Tower and almost never misses whether it be air or land units. The only way to effectively kill a death totem without sacrificing units is to simply out range it. Also, when paired with a sacred fire and a couple stone giants, you can make a nearly impenetrable position (esp on high ground)

DeeKay wrote:
But the point, is that Zhon's Roc, together with another race (taros and aramon) it becomes overpowered, with monarch drops and those weird things.

This is a huge, even in 1v1. On larger CD/DC maps, no matter what your strategy is, you're going to grab mana spots further and further away from your main base as the game progresses. This means sending builders (usaully by themselves) were they can easily be converted by a single harpie, then subsequently scooped up by a roc and dropped off at a safe location.
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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:40 pm

Zhon is an air race. Taros isnt

Aramon = Earth
Veruna = Water
Taros = Fire
Zhon = Wind
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Last edited by DeeKay on Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : No double post)
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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:14 pm

DeeKay wrote:
...Taros has Fire Mages....

yep that one unit change a lot, and make taros more powerfull than zhon in typicall matches, also zombies are OP, its hard to counter mass pushing zombies (zhon lack of AoE like cannoner), zhon doesn't have that heavy pusher (troll, but you can't make them auto move from handler, so you can make only waves of units, which can be countered by fire mage)

begin game, taros better (due to better expansion)
mid game, depends on map, if taros didn't get advantage cause of expansion, zhon should has advantage on drops, but not always, mind mages, can counter it, and like with drops, you can win with one of them, or they won't change anything
late game, taros era again (fire mage, strong push of zombie, mass gargoyles to annoy enemy giants, fallen angel to change frontline)
also ghost ships + liches


Quote :
About wave killing rocs, it's like when a unit deal more damage than it's supposed to do, like super wave or idk, when giant orm sometimes hit kill a zhon lodestone, sometimes not, etc.

its that "idk" TA:K imo doesn't have definied 100% dmg, or health points, its the easiest to see when crusade balance its off
and when you wave towers (they have around 5k health) some of them get destroyed (even have more than 5k)(watch tower), some of them not (have less than 5k(guard tower))

that game has something wrong coded inside, about being specific, this game isn't specific at all, almost everything its random xD, especially if you look very precisely
but still that beast tamer which survive one time wave, other not,
giant orm eating zhone divine, or not, it should be always same

Nightfall wrote:
Totem topic.
just use 12 warriors at once, or trolls, or any monarch 2nd weapon (specially if its covered by sacred fire, don't destroy that sacred fire, by 4 kirenna bubles (2nd atack), your enemy will get burned around 4k mana, its like waving many of units, also you are probably slowing Zhon expansion into later technology)
but yep, they are best "first type" tower (but in manual they are only 2nd tier, other races have 1st tier (caged, watch,guard) or 3rd tier (stronghold, mage), but still handlers can't build them, like in other races, just regular builder can build towers


About mage tower
yep it need range assists, even to counter ... mage archers, and probably other a bit longer things, on other hand it has highest DPS in all towers, don't need to rotate slowly cannon xD, but i must agree generally taros has worst towers (maybe creon is worse in defense terms)

Quote :
expansion thing

depends on map, on most available maps, zhon sux cause of lack expansion abilities, you will have like 1/2 or even 1/4 enemy income, but ye the bigger map and less amount of mana map, the zhon become stronger
Zhon have probably best efficient units in mana/effective terms (hard to explain, would need to use my native language to give proper examples), also its easier to control few beast builders, than pack of them, in other races, its "less scale" problem

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Last edited by DeeKay on Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : No double post)
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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:09 pm

The long and short of this argument is twofold. First, the Ghost Ship is tier one and armed. That means early access and self defense. The Roc is later tier and unarmed. Secondly, Taros is a much more conventional race to fight with. Zhon without a wall is meant to be more mobile. Meaning they need to maneuver as much as possible.

It's a question of pure Zhon vs pure Other. When you mix and match and cherry pick the best of all races available, then it becomes a moot point.

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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:28 pm

it would be easy to turn the roc into a builder unit insted of a transport

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PostSubject: Re: CAVEDOG NERF ROC PLS   Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:04 pm

I did always find it odd that Zion didnt have a flying builder other than Thirsha, but that Aramon - the supreme land power - has a flying builder.

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