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 Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier

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Nightfall



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PostSubject: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:38 am

I've been playing many games as Veruna recently and enjoyed it quite a lot. I can't help but notice though that veruna's late game options (or lack there of) can be really frustrating. Late game on any medium or large map can be very painful.
Now, I understand that having a early/mid/late game dynamic between different factions make each more unique and interesting to play, but in this case Veruna simply takes a too much of a decline. And to add insult to injury, the supposed water race usaully is not poised to rule the sea.

Harpoon Ship: Judging by the name you might assume that this would be the best ship for killing water creatures, but all too often they miss their mark if the unit is moving fast. A handful of swamp beasts/mer warriors (and sometimes even liches) will quickly send your fleet to the bottom of the sea without own mer warriors or floating towers to protect them. For this reason, naval units tend be become more of a liablity as a game progresses.

The Harpoon, however, is actaully better used for AA, but even then they can only hit hovering air units (similar to a Mage tower); damage can be devastating to lighter air units when the harpoon actaully hits (Ghost Ship, Dark Priest, Gryphon, Ironbeak, Harpy, Wisp)

Allowing Harpoon ships to more accurately shoot water or air units like the floating tower would be a good start. This might be OP though with considering how easily the harpoon ship can be spammed, so increasing the build time from 15.6 to 20 seconds would be an extra step. From here the harpoon ship would be loosely similar to a WW2 era destroyer (killing submerged enemies, AA, etc) in that it would carry out the odd jobs that the bigger dreadnoughts could not.

Man of War: I don't think the MoW should be given a true 'water weapon'. Firstly, it would be really redundant if the FT and Harpoon Ship already had this ability to begin with, and second, it would force a player to think about his fleet composition rather than thoughtlessly spamming one type of ship without consequence. The MoW strikes me as a true Battleship, meant for coastal bombardment/countering for other races navy while the Harpoon ship will act as a support vessel compensate for the MoW's more subtle weaknesses. Time to build should be increased from 18.5 to around 25 seconds.

Floating Tower: Decent, but since the FT has a minimum range you'll need to build more than one so they can cover each other. Should take slightly less time/mana to build, 37.4 seconds and 3608 mana is a bit too much IMO.

Flagship: Should be able to build lighthouses so they can be placed in nice strategic areas (small islands with highground/coastal cliffs etc, etc), which would help players react quickly to big air raids or drops. Should also be able to tranport unit.

Sea Treb: Costs way too much for something that has very limited hitpoints. Being a naval unit it simply can't be shielded by a gate, which mean all your enemy needs to counter is one Sky Knight and you would have wasted a minute in time and 7843 mana. Quite simply, the treb needs at least double the hitpoints it has now or a large reduction in cost.

Mortar: Not very impressive tbh, but this is usaully the only way for veruna to knock out masses of cannoneers/fire demons/stone giants from a safe distance. Mortars are slow to do damage, and really easy to destroy in some sitautions, making the price of 5546 per mortar a bit unjustified. Lower this to around 4200 mana and it will be more balanced. Another possible buff might be to slightly increase the mortars damage.

Pillar of Light: Similar to the sacred fire but and takes over a 1.17 seconds to build (5 seconds more than the Aramon Treb!) It should only be 20 seconds to construct at the most.

Balista: Turn off CB and you'll see the potential of this lost gem. The balista needs that great range back or at least a large fraction of it.  Certianly not bad with CB on, but's it just isnt as useful as a Grenadier, Orm or Fallen Angel.

Priest of Lihr: Like the units it creates, the Priest of Lihr is also somewhat weak. Costs almost as much as a Acolyte or Dark Priest but isn't remotely as useful in combat. The Bubble weapon they use is deceptively ineffective; unlike the monarchs bubble, it doesnt track, nor does it have the same range.

The Healing aura can be a great asset in some situations, like when you need to heal gates or even protect offloaded troops from a transport on water maps (not that many people play those anyway). Despite this, Priests are still over priced; their bubble attack should either be upgraded or the Priests should cost less mana to build.

Centaur: As Deekay pointed out before, it is more than likely that Cavedog forgot to make their arrows guided. I think a fix for this is both warranted and overdue. They should also be unfreezable.

Crusader: Should be able to survive a monarch wave like a blade demon or knight.

Dirigible: Allow it to carry a few units so Verunian builders can be transported to hard to reach places.

If anyone has any other ideas regarding this topic, feel free to share your thoughts! I will most likely be making similar threads for Taros, Zhon, and Aramon sooner or later.
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PostSubject: Re: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:38 am

I agree with all. Nice post.

What about other Veruna units? In your opinion they are balanced?

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PostSubject: Re: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:10 pm

I think most of the other units for Veruna are fine. Veruna's tier one for example is very solid and perfectly made for a early game push.

Again, much of my complaints are about high tier units. Beserkers may also need a change because they kill eachother like executioners with their large aoe, though I still see a lot of good players use them to great effect. Amazon Knights seem underpowered as well, but I don't really use them that much so it hard for me to judge if they deserve a buff or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:01 pm

Veruna's T1 is actually better than most others. Their Catapult is better than Aramon's - the "land power," their infantry is comparable or superior to Aramon's, and their Merwarrior is just awesome in the right circumstances. Berserkers, for their price and speed, are meant to be skirmishing death machines. I find them perfectly balanced. Amazon Knights, too, are fine because of their ability to 'strafe' enemy lines while on the move. Their ranged speed makes up for their inaccuracy, especially when used in larger numbers.

While I agree with your analysis of the naval arm of Veruna (many thoughts I've had myself over the years), I have to disagree on a couple of other issues, as well.

Harpoon should be support and AA, MoW heavy line ships, yes. Tower, too, is overpriced as you say for their purpose/abilities. I like the idea of the Lighthouse built by the Flagship. For some reason, I thought they did that already, so I took it for granted. The Treb ships, however, I think you're onto something on price alone. Their HP is fine because they're mobile, and the idea - as you mentioned - is to pay closer attention to fleet composition. So a reduction in cost, but HP is fine.

The Mortar, too, I think is mostly okay. If anything, a slightly lower trajectory (when will it need to reach such heights?) or speed up the velocity of the projectile. ALSO, increase in splash damage. Due to it's inability to strike advancing (moving) units, landing shells amid a wave is really the only great option against non-static targets. And for that to be effective, you'd need a 'shrapnel' effect. A slight reduction in cost and an increase in projectile speed & splash damage should make this a more suitable option.

Pillar of Light. I just don't like this unit. I don't. I never build it. My thinking was that, it being a light source, it could expand line of sight or radar. But then, you already have the Lighthouse for that. So leaving it as a source of healing/support is really all you've got. I don't know, never liked it as I said. BUT if you're going to give it that healing/support option, then I say remove that of the Priest of Lihr. Aramon's Acolyte has the same aura, but has not Pillar option. So I say flip it for Veruna. Just increase the Pillar's Range on the Aura, or the Aura's bonus itself.

Then take the Priest of Lihr (and I thought the bubble WAS targeted...?) and buff him in other ways. Remove his aura, increase his water-walking speed, the damage or range of his attack, as well as spells. Make him a bit more diverse. That's the whole point to Veruna's land-based abilities. They aren't the sort that's supposed to stand toe-to-toe with other powers, especially later-game, BUT they do have more dynamic options than, say, the blunt-force power of Aramon, or the aerial/drop options of Zhon. And here the Priest sort of sucks.

The Centaur, I think, is also fine. Given its range and damage, all it might need is a bit more HP. The Amazon Knight already gives the speedy ranged option, but lacks the precision and range. So making the Centaur an inverse counterpart makes the most sense. Personally I thought when the Centaur was added, it was sort of silly. Especially when you get the Ballista later, but then I didn't work for Cavedog. And I see no reason it should not be freezable. Why make that distinction?

As to the Ballista, I always found it OP. But then, I almost always play with CB turned off anyway. So I won't weigh in on this one too much.

The Crusader, I agree, always seemed odd. It was almost like Veruna was crafted along the lines of Medieval Mediterranean states, and that happened to give a heavier footsoldier option in the Crusader. BUT nothing really makes it stand apart. I don't know that I'd want him to survive a Mon's wave necessarily - and if so, maybe with only about 100 HP left - BUT he does need something extra. Maybe a specific bonus against Monsters and Undead, and a smaller bonus against all T1 in general. Thus their inherent weakness is balanced with a stronger (limited) attack.

The Dirigible, yes, needs some small level of transportation. It makes no sense why it couldn't cart around a few small soldiers.

But then, I think Veruna was always meant to be sort of a Zerg Rush on land, and supposed to dominate on the waters. The first part works well enough as there's no power than can match her Rush power, but the dominance of the navy doesn't quite inspire as it was meant to.

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PostSubject: Re: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:47 pm

still Veruna OP on fastest maps
warriors/kirenna just change that race

but ye later become most useless probably

but try to play vs Veruna on blood hunters, sewers of elam, gg almost always
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PostSubject: Re: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:04 pm

a quick navy fix would be to make one ship able to hit underwater targets well.
then fix the other races such as creon then balance zhon water units make kraken > swamp beast.
i dont think too many changes are needed but veruna should be the best in water but just fail vs swampbeast and creon =(

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PostSubject: Re: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:50 pm

Not sure how you would make the Flagship carry units when the 2 panel icon spaces used for that have clean-up and repair icons.

I think the harpoon ship is tough enough as is. Amazons are pretty useless and berserkers usually die before they do anything meaningful.

Other than that, the list looks like solid changes.
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PostSubject: Re: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:40 pm

Leroy Peterson wrote:
I think the harpoon ship is tough enough as is.


Large numbers of Harpoon ships will fend off aerial attackers fairly easily in a straight up fight, but run across a few swamp beasts you'll get creamed. It's an absolute joke.

Manually aiming the harpoons can help in a pinch, but such meticulous micro management isn't always a good thing.

Now the obvious choice to "counter" would be produce Mer warriors, but swamp beasts brush them off with ease with their large AOE melee attack. Simply put, the only way to stop swamp beasts would be build so many them that you wouldn't even have mana left to produce anything else, and all for what? To protect a handful of ships? Probably not worth it I think.




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PostSubject: Re: Veruna Rebalance for Ships and High Tier   Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:03 pm

ye navy is the weirdest thing in that game

IMO veruna has in many cases worst NAVY
depends on mana amount on map
high mana maps the best probably: Taros (liches you can't counter bound of them)(best swimming unit in fire race xD )
low mana: Zhon, just swamp beast
btw Kraken has any use? specially after CB they are pretty expensive :?
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