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PostSubject: TAK: Devolution   Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:06 pm

This is my rant on most 3rd party maps, and it's very plausible that this could turn into a heated debate (hopefully, I love debate) due to the length and content of the post.

Well, there is the forewarning... read on at your own peril.



Let me start off first by saying that TA:K was not designed for conventional warfare, no strategy game is. My view of conventional warfare in TA:K being that I start on top, you start on bottom, and we both have all of our resources at our disposal from the get go.

There's the first problem; grouped mana.

Grouped mana is an easy target for liches, storms, or my favorite, monarchs. You can land a crippling blow and, if followed up correctly, end the game within 2 minutes. Another problem with grouped mana is that it doesn't teach you to fight for anything. You could leave 80% of the map in lingo and it won't matter because you have everything you need in your own 10% of it.

It severely hinders your micromanagement capabilities also. I will straight up tell you that on 3rd party maps, the basic walk is do your strategy, patrol units towards your enemies base, and focus fire on ranged units and defenses. Basically, the only thing you will learn is strategy and how to focus fire. The good players micro their units in mid battle whenever they get a moment away from building their base.

What I mean is this, and I'll give you an example;

T1 vs T1

Theres Melee vs Melee in the middle, the opponent has 7 archers. 3 in one group and a few tiles away 4 in another. You just got your first Blade Demon up and your Temple is set on patrol. What do you do?

Flank the group of four archers with your Demon since he has a "splash damage" effect. What next?

Hopefully you have a bird or some LOS and you can see what's going on behind the front line. Can you get him back there to do some damage? Should you take out the other three archers? Should you pull him back and try to make him veteran status?

Sure, most players micro T2+ units, but I never see but a few micro their T1 even in modest cases like melee combat - except CD/DC maps where you have to learn it in order to survive. Attack the incoming units or Run > Take Damage > Kill one lodestone.

People don't understand the importance of mana as a matter of fact. You get dropped, lose a few, rebuild... no big deal. You take a base, build over their mana, no big deal.


What happens when it isn't there at your convenience?


You are stupified. You have no idea what to do.

Time and time again I play against players on these legendary maps that have been all but forgotten and notice that they didnt scout and forgot a stone which could have saved them. Also, when my base is overrun, and I take it back, they never bothered to build over the 1-2 stones that would have crippled me.

3rd party maps make your gameplay dull. It's fun every now and then when you actually want to have fun, but I'm a competitive person. I'll tell you straight up I don't come here for fun except when a few people are online. I get adrenaline rushes from the anxiety and it's the rush I'm looking for.



Last year I did a personal ban on third party maps and it was some of the most fun I've had on TA:K since the MPlayer days with Clay, Monk, Joker and most of all Savage. Staying up late at night playing incredible games.

Amazing things happened in those games every night that the latter have never experienced in their days online. You can't walk around with Elsin and 1 knight on a third party map and destroy your entire opponents base by kiting units as Savage once did to me... I was pretty pissed but it's one of the far better memories that I have of this game.

How often have you switched bases entirely on a third party map? And how many times in one game?

How often have you been at a defecit of having your Monarch only and came back and won on third party maps?

How often have you microed one unit (a basic one, not a dragon or a treb) and annihilated entire bases on third party maps?

I'm guessing all of your answers to the above questions are zero. It's a heightened level of entertainment and competition that dwarfs the gameplay now a days by ten fold. I'm pretty sure all of the veterans will agree with me and they can cite instances where these things, and more, has happened to them in the past.



On a side note, grouped mana and having a few stones in the middle is not fighting for your right to production - it's whoever get's there first and makes a gate.



Let me reeiterate my initial point by once again saying TA:K is not designed for grouped mana warfare. The skill level and veteran status shines on maps where, if you want something, you have to earn it - not on these maps where everything is given to you. They are good novelty maps but nothing more.



I don't really care what you have to say. I'm not ashamed about losing on maps where minimal logisitics is involved and I'm "****" sure not afraid to admit that I lose on those maps frequently, mainly due to unit design and my apathy for the task at hand.



Angel, remember those random maps we played a month or two ago? That was hella fun, we need to do that again sometime.



So if anyone wants to take it up a notch, or bring me up a notch (Joker, Sage, Clay, etc.) you can PM me in WarZone. Don't be afraid to lose, you can only get stronger from it. I lost most of my matches on MPlayer - might I add CD/DC consisted of 75% of the games - but I wanted to get better because these maps threw variables into the equation that you never saw coming.


In conclusion, I'm going on a third party map ban with the exception of one player. Try the maps, you'll have a blast and laugh your "***" off at some of the events that unfold.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:26 pm

1 plus of a 3rd party map. They r easy to learn how to play.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:36 pm

Actually...I completely agree with Double here. o.o

I have never been an ace TAK player. And most of my wins have come either through 3rd party maps where my partner carried my \"***\" most of the map or through spread mana maps where my opponent knew less about mana management than I did.

The very fact that this is a war game, alone, tells you that 95% of these grouped mana maps are bogus. When are things ever that easy in war?
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:40 pm

If anyone here has ever played StarCraft online, let me know. I can put it in better lamens terms for you.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:31 pm

i agree in part with you...

i have to say if you want a real war, the true is that the maps of cd/dc map can give you that...not despising 3rd maps cuz actually i like both kind of maps.

I like that battle in middle there is lot of fun for me, sometimes i can say i just dont want to go to the mana and like the mana is already there.

In cd/dc you need to pursuit your resources not complaint, quite the contrary, when i play a cd/dc map i forget completely with who im playing and how im use to play in 3rd part, is another game, is a war...and you never sure if the game is finished, you can comeback to game if you work hard and know how to do it. Is pure strat i have to say that, and i love...

I do remember that games, adamantine glen was fun, (but i still hating that gs ^^)...well but i would like to know the map that we played, i was zhon and you were taros, there was a small island in top that i didnt know and you got it, but i take it after and died there for some rictus, that was one of the most memorable games i ever played, cuz is a game that i still remember Smile
you know the name of that map?

i cant agree with all that you say, maybe cuz i like 3rd part a lot too, but to finish my opinion, the top players need to know how to play 65% in cd/dc and 35% 3rd part, maybe, but i cant say a lot about of that 65%, even i use to play cd/dc maps =/
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:19 pm



Greenstone Point. I had to find it because I didn't remember it either.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say, people. I played Angel on this map for over 45 minutes and we had a blast because of the terrain and mana placement. We kept going back and forth, I was going to win and then he was going to win. It was a very epic battle that I will never forget!

Angel gave it a shot a month ago and from it we have a TA:K memory that will be written in our own personal annals of time.

I urge you to give these maps a chance. It's some of the most fun I've ever had besides being a dodgeball champion in tenth and eleventh grade.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:54 pm

Your brain must be lagging here, I remember starting a campaign against the whole grouped mana thing just over a year ago, the threads are probably here or yuku. I stated pretty much the same points you have here and I completely agree with them, yet strangely enough the elite players pointed the noob finger and refused to play spread mana. mostly because of the reason spread mana takes no skill and that mon rusing is the most skilful thing you can do in this game. (This may not have been you hatebreeder, mostly TD players but I just lump you in there)

Using spread mana maps will solve what many see as "flaws" in the game, aramon can't just gate up and treb their way to victory, or at least it is incredibly difficult for them to do that. And I'm sure many will realise that zohn becomes the best race on spread mana, the game is completely different, the way it was meant to be played.

The problem now is "converting" the players who have grown up on grouped mana into playing spread, the chances are is that they'll be terrible (me included) and will therefore hate it.

Don't get me wrong grouped is fun to play but spread is more fun and less about using the standard routine of barraks, mana, horses/swordsmen, monrush, knights, cannons, win

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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:25 pm

Me love cd/dc ... almost makes me want to play again, if only I wasn't installing SC2 right now.... oh well.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:28 pm

I would appriciate it if you didn't "lump" me in with TD or the elite players, I am neither. TD was another failed attempt at having the best players in one clan, much like XII, UK, UA, SK, WC, the Xx-xX's, and that's just to name a few. Very few clans have stood the test of time - WarGods being the most noted and DB as the most prestigious. There I go telling you how it is again.

Besides, I don't see you online anymore?

Quote :
Using spread mana maps will solve what many see as "flaws" in the game, aramon can't just gate up and treb their way to victory, or at least it is incredibly difficult for them to do that. And I'm sure many will realise that zohn becomes the best race on spread mana, the game is completely different, the way it was meant to be played.

I completely agree, Ace.

So, are we going to throwdown tonight? ;)

We had some really good games last night on Sewers and Lake Lokken(?) - I even lost a few matches but we all had a great time :D Thanks for the games Hawk, JBird and monk.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:23 pm

Double, I take exception to your lumping SK into that category. SK was NEVER about having the "Best players" all in one clan. SK was about improving the players we DID have. SK was a family, which is why it lasted as long as it did. Unfortunately, Rage dissappeared on us. We had so many varied personalities in that clan, that when Rage left, we just fell apart. Hades held us together for a while, but in the end, it was Rage who know how best to buffer tempers and egoes in SK. Without him, it just didn't work out.

UA......Ok, Justy did have grand dreams of making UA an elite clan, not just of talented TAKers, but people you wanted to be around. Thoughtful, kind, funny, and generally good people. This is why people like Kefka didn't last in UA....he was an outstanding TAKer, skill-wise, but you couldn't stand to be around the prick. We struggled for a while to get some others to join, but that was their own decision not to, for their own reasons. Instructor and Carnage King are the two in this category that jump to mind.

And WG was NEVER about trying to gather TAK's elite to them. WG was always about good games and friends. We never went on recruiting campaigns, or begged people, as a clan, to join us. We had who we had because of the friendly atmosphere WG had. We just liked playing the game, win or lose. That's all there was to it.

You don't like being lumped in with TD or the "elite" players, please don't lump me, or SK or WG into those categories either.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:59 pm

This is where the collaboration of minds converge into a general consensus and I have no quarrels with your post, Chronos.

Also, I referred to WarGods and DB as clans who stood the test of time for reasons I should not have to note. May I also toss these tags into the ring; KM (sage), 30's and... anyone else want to chime in here?
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:44 am

lol the Xx-xX was just a one week clan joke. I was in it as XxMavericKxX, then the Zz-zZ clan was made as well but just as a temporary joke, too.

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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:50 am

Oh god...joke clans... I remember briefly joining colors. No idea how many of you may or may not remember that one. lol. Monster was Pink...I was purple...And I cannot remember who the others were now. XD
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:23 am

altho spred mana is grate the problem is how do u get an epic 3v3 or 4v4 going ??
the only map i can think of is bloods and that only needs parshal mana manigment. in short this is usles inles balanced spred mana maps for 3v3 and 4v4 are created.

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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:14 pm

Wqaopl wrote:
altho spred mana is grate the problem is how do u get an epic 3v3 or 4v4 going ??
the only map i can think of is bloods and that only needs parshal mana manigment. in short this is usles inles balanced spred mana maps for 3v3 and 4v4 are created.


Those maps were created probably 11 years ago and I think theres several 3v3 and 4v4 maps that most people have never even seen. May I also note that these maps are the epitome of balance.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:43 pm

Iapur Narrows is like....the only map I like playing 1v1s on. lol. Instructor and I had some good matches there, when I was learning the game.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:16 pm

That map is best played 3 player, because the person in the middle always gets fucked. I have yet to see someone pull out of it. Hopefully I well get a chance to be the underdog there one day Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:40 pm

My friend who use to play 6+ years ago with me just recently told me he found a cd full of old maps.... most are probably 3rd party; he mentioned seeing some of Kiwi's old maps. One of these days I will have to get it from him and take a look....

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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:59 pm

Sorry I may have confused you with savage, I just seem to remember you in support of them, any way I'll take you out of that imaginary bracket.

Hatebreeder-DB wrote:
This is where the collaboration of minds converge into a general consensus and I have no quarrels with your post, Chronos.
Haha, you seem to slip back into the ye olde time lingo whenever talking to chronos, old habits die hard

The problem I find with grouped mana is that its too linear as well, the maps are usually to thin to sneak a group of units round the side to flank, or ambush a mon which is a really fun tactic to use

wqaopl is right, the 4v4 semi-spread maps are pretty much to small to have a good game. You should upload a few of those maps hatebreeder so people can try them when there is a 4v4/3v3.

Another great game mode to play that is often overlooked is 2v2v2(v2) when there are 6-8 players, these only really work on spread maps or psuedo-spread (i.e bloods) and usually are really entertaining whenever I've played them, even more so when you have a good teammate you know well.

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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:30 pm

Ace, I like your style.

And the maps I am talking about are all in the Darien Crusades map collection, which many people do not download.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:09 am

i would love to make or modafy some of my maps for such games

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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:01 pm

Best maps (for me) are the ones with really spread-out mana definitely, plus plenty of hills, berms and buildings for urban-style warfare and to stop people relying just on long-range weapons. Some o' ye might like the maps I've already uploaded to here...

I made some awesome huge Cave maps before though where all the mana is grouped around the start positions, allowing you to concentrate on guerilla warfare in the maze of passages and scouting out routes and shortcuts to outflank your enemies.
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:13 pm

On the Taros tileset there's a terrain feature called "spires." There's small, medium and large ones. The largest spires can and will effectively block trebuchet assaults at a maximum distance of half a screen.

What I did was I made rows of them so you could build bases in complete safety from trebs. However, mortars and catapults can still arc over them and hit your base. But the maps I designed were to stop treb warfare and make it more "urban" as Stats has said.

Unfortunately, they never caught on.

Maybe I'll remake them and play them with the WarZone nightshift we have had running for four days in a row now, hopefully five!
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:31 am

[quote="Maybe I'll remake them and play them with the WarZone nightshift we have had running for four days in a row now, hopefully five![/quote]

im down Smile
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PostSubject: Re: TAK: Devolution   Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:36 pm

from what i've read here everyone wants to play more spread mana so lets do it!
we all know if your a good player with spread mana then your awesome with grouped as hate said its to do with the management (i know ive had some games where i forgot about some units that may have changed the outcome of the game)

SO LETS GET PLAYIN SOME SPREAD MANA

i have no problem with grouped mana but it does get boring seeing the same thing every game
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