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PostSubject: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:00 pm

I always ask myself "Why is Total Annihilation: Kingdoms such a special Real Time Strategy game? Why do you love and respect TA:K above all? Why TA:K and not the original Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Age of Empires or Warcraft?". I decided it is about time to write and explain why this is such an epic game (The most epic strategy game ever, in my opinion!):

[1] The fantasy setting of Darien is one of the most detailed settings in the RTS genre. A beautiful map with rich detail, an epic storyline starting from the Kandran race and ending with the fall of Sage, a manual which explains each unit's place in the world and the absolutely touching backrounds of the greatest personalities in the land of Darien. I admit, I could live in Darien's universe with pleasure.

[2] Two fascinating campaigns, the 'Book of Darien' and 'The Iron Plague'. Many people believe that the missions were plain and narrative, they disliked the documentary-styled cutscenes and they hated the fact you change kingdom between the missions. Most would have preferred five unique campaigns, each one with a different kingdom, live-action cutscenes and much more complicated missions. I have an answer for each one of these points of view.
* The documentary-styled cutscenes was something unique, you don't see it often and you probably won't see it ever again in a video game. It also made the storyline to feel much more serious and epic and helped in keeping track of the ongoing war's events!
* The fact you change kingdom during each mission is also something nice and interesting, it makes TA:K campaigns unique in comparison with other RTS scenarios and helps a lot with the plot of the game. If you think about it, it is boring to play the same fraction during all the missions and I really don't understand why the rest RTS games haven't followed Kingdom's example at all. They keep their boring, one-fraction campaigns even today. After all, a single fraction shouldn't be the absolute winner just because you controll it, should it be?
* The game is called TOTAL ANNIHILATION: kingdoms! A game with a title like this ought to have deathmatch-style missions! The truth is that there are a lot of non-deathmatch-style missions in TA:K, much more than there should be.

[3] TA:K IS UNBALANCED! OMG!!!! Guys, I have heard that bullthit again and again from TA:K players and reviewers and I still hear it even today! It is time to answer this once and for all!
--- First of all, there is no strategy game with perfect balance between its fractions, except if it is like Age of Empires II and has the same fraction again and again, but with a different name each time and slightly different advantages and disadvantages (Britons, Franks, Celts, Teutons, Goths, Huns, Aztecs, Mayans, Spanish, Turks, Saracens, Byzantines, Persians, Mongols, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vikings were actually the same fraction).
--- Secondly, there are very few to none RTS games which offer 5 totally different fractions (personally, I don't know any other, except TA:K of course!). They choose the easy way of creating the same fraction with different name and different graphical style instead of making something with really different gameplay.
--- Thirdly, no one ever claimed that Aramon, Taros, Veruna, Zhon and Creon have the same chance of victory on every kind of map. Since each of the five kingdoms is different, it has its own advantages, disadvantages, strategy and gameplay. Of course Veruna is the best choice on an aquatic map, Creon rules on big maps where it can expand freely etc. No one forces you to choose, for example, Taros or Aramon on an aquatic map and if you still have problems with the 'unbalance' thing, you can compete only in Aramon Vs Aramon, Taros Vs Taros, Veruna Vs Veruna, Zhon Vs Zhon and Creon VS Creon matches (except if Aramon is a weakling in comparison with the overpowered, broken Aramon!!!).
--- There is no useless unit in TA:K. Each unit has its own use. Some units are used more frequently than others because the circumstances demand it, however this doesn't make the rest units useless, for god's sake! Do you know even a single strategy game which include units with exactly equal usability? Is there an RTS with perfect unit balance? No, there is not, so stop pretending that Blizzard's and Microsoft's RTS are perfect because they are NOT!

[4] Great online matches! Total Annihilation:Kingdoms has an easy-to-use level editor and, because of that, there are hundreds of custom-made maps on the web. The gameplay and strategies witch are used in each map vary widely, however there are two major categories, the CD/DC maps with spread mana and the 3rd Party ones with gathered mana. There are large maps which offer hours of gameplay and small ones that usually last about 5-10 minutes. Each online game is a different and unique experience!

[5] Kingdoms dares to be different than the rest of its kin. It keeps the resource to one (mana) but its management is more vital and difficult than most people think, so TA:K resources system is simplified yet challenging. Another truly different thing than the rest of RTS is the Zhon race, which is proven to be the most unique RTS race ever! It uses no building at all, omg! The four holy dragons (or five with Aerial Juggernaut) is not something you meet everyday in a strategy game, do you? The five monarchs with their special abilities are also a positive trait of this game.

[6] A lot of nice home-made mods, units, patches and races has been created and they can be used to bring TA:K experience into another dimension. If Cavedog wasn't shut down, we would probably had a lot of bug fixes too. However, the bad TA:K reviews made an excellent work... in burying this game and closing Cavedog!!!!! ANGER, PURE RAGE OR THOSE DAMNED REVIEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because of all the above, I think Total Annihilation: Kingdoms really proves to be an excellent Real Time Strategy game, one of the best around (if not the best!). That's all I had to write. Please, tell me your opinion about everything I wrote, fellow community members. Long live TAK!
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:52 pm

Hi Arthan,i guess i agreed with almost everything you said. And i add more points of views.

I guess the bad point of Ta:K is in the missions. Not that they are bad, but we could add something. I'm with those who ask for 5 campaign, but not just that.

Campaigns:
Aramon
Veruna
Taros
Zhon
Creon
Original

I would add the original campaign that you play in the time line of game. As it is made. The narrative is exceptional. But i guess it would be great with videos following them. Of course is ask too much for a game of that time.

TAK have something that i love. The mon fights, remember me those movies of medieval war that some leader go to another leader and they start to fight and omg. ^^
The units are the most important point. I dont think that is unbalanced at all, it depends all of maps and strategies.
Kingdoms is a game made to be played by multiplayer. A combination of strategies that can be made is huge, there are so many. We can make lots of things and i guess we didnt find it all that can be done. News ideas are always coming. That is what i think that makes tak a game of another level. The secrets hided over 10 years. We know everything about other games, every strategy. I played TA, AoE, AoW and warcraft. And kingdoms is special.

Everyone may say of other games, but the real magic world is in Darien. There is only one other game that makes me feel like, when im playing tak. And it is HOMM 3. Just those are real magic games. The other ones are fake magic, that cant hipnotize or seduce us.

I still waiting the day, that TAK will be remake. A better graphics game, with videos and narrative with subtitles, that it would help a lot. But keeping the original history. TAK can have more history. TAK could be a book, a movie. Just read the history of the Kandrans, and keep it until the iron plague. It remember lord of the rings, but a diferent world.
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:43 pm

Thanks for your reply, dear Angel3b, however I still want to claim the throne of the galaxy from you and I will be successful one day. About what you wrote as an answer, you have right, it would be fine to have 7 campaigns in total (Book of Darien, The Iron Plague, Aramon Campaign, Taros Campaign, Veruna Campaign, Zhon Campaign, Creon Campaign). A single live-action video or two would really add to the experience, however the documentary-styled cutscenes is what sets apart TA:K's cutscenes from the rest RTS's cutscenes. The best would be to have a live-action video right after the documentary of each mission. It would also be great if we knew a way to fix some of those silly bugs the game has. Ahhh... what a game...
I can't hold my anger every time I read one of those stupid reviews.
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:01 pm



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:27 am

I have also forgot to mention how good the soundtrack-music of Total Annihilation: Kingdoms is. I know some people would prefer a faster and louder music, however I found is so beautiful and calm. When I feel stressed the game's music helps me to relax and, even when I play the game, the soundtracks help me to focus on a strategical way of thinking.
It would be even nicer if we had a greater variety of music (faster and slower soundtracks), as well as a true theme music for each of the five kingdoms, but the music is great like it is anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:57 am

ARTHAN wrote:


[3] TA:K IS UNBALANCED! OMG!!!! Guys, I have heard that bullthit again and again from TA:K players and reviewers and I still hear it even today! It is time to answer this once and for all!

--- First of all, there is no strategy game with perfect balance between its fractions, except if it is like Age of Empires II and has the same fraction again and again, but with a different name each time and slightly different advantages and disadvantages (Britons, Franks, Celts, Teutons, Goths, Huns, Aztecs, Mayans, Spanish, Turks, Saracens, Byzantines, Persians, Mongols, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vikings were actually the same fraction).

Starcraft.

ARTHAN wrote:
--- Secondly, there are very few to none RTS games which offer 5 totally different fractions (personally, I don't know any other, except TA:K of course!). They choose the easy way of creating the same fraction with different name and different graphical style instead of making something with really different gameplay.


Age of Mythology, Axis & Allies, Battle Realms, C&C, Company of Heroes. I can keep going, but you get the idea.

From an unbiased view, TAK is a really bad and unoriginal game with more flaws than you can count on your hands.

ARTHAN wrote:
--- Thirdly, no one ever claimed that Aramon, Taros, Veruna, Zhon and Creon have the same chance of victory on every kind of map. Since each of the five kingdoms is different, it has its own advantages, disadvantages, strategy and gameplay. Of course Veruna is the best choice on an aquatic map, Creon rules on big maps where it can expand freely etc. No one forces you to choose, for example, Taros or Aramon on an aquatic map and if you still have problems with the 'unbalance' thing, you can compete only in Aramon Vs Aramon, Taros Vs Taros, Veruna Vs Veruna, Zhon Vs Zhon and
Creon VS Creon matches (except if Aramon is a weakling in comparison with the overpowered, broken Aramon!!!).

This is the total opposite of balance. TAK is probably one of the most broken RTS games ever created. The difference in power from each race is staggering.

The notion that each race has its advantages is completely ignorant of the game and how it's actually played. Veruna has absolutely nothing on any of the other races when it comes to aquatic maps, Veruna is actually the worst race to use on water maps. The only thing that you can say Veruna has on water maps is mobility, but even that is shot to shit by Zhon. Creon completely dominates the ship war, Zhon dominates the unit war, Taros and Aramon don't give a shit about your water because everything gets blown up.

Creon is horrible on large maps, they are too slow at expanding to take advantage of it. Creon is actually probably the best race to use on small scale maps. Large land maps are dominated by Veruna and Taros because they can actually expand fast enough to completely mana starve the other races. The only way to stop Veruna and Taros from completely controlling the map is to pick Aramon and rush their builders. This is why Veruna is used the most on CD/DC maps where map control is everything, Taros comes in second because they have the fastest build time on their lodes which lets them expand insanely fast.

ARTHAN wrote:
--- There is no useless unit in TA:K. Each unit has its own use. Some units are used more frequently than others because the circumstances demand it, however this doesn't make the rest units useless, for god's sake! Do you know even a single strategy game which include units with exactly equal usability? Is there an RTS with perfect unit balance? No, there is not, so stop pretending that Blizzard's and Microsoft's RTS are perfect because they are NOT!

This pretty much just tells me you know nothing about high level play in TAK. 80% of the units in TAK are completely useless, COMPLETELY USELESS.

Veruna is actuallly pretty good in the unit area(3 useless), as-well as Aramon(3 useless). The problem begins when you get to Zhon and Taros who have so many units that are just not worth building when you can get better options for cheaper, faster, and provide more map control. I'd make a list, but it'd take a while to layout the numbers.

TAK is the most unbalanced RTS game I've ever played, and I've played a lot of RTS games at a high level.

TAK has the MK:D syndrome, completely fucking broken beyond comprehension, but insanely fun to play.
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:15 am



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:19 am

White wrote:


Starcraft.

Age of Mythology, Axis & Allies, Battle Realms, C&C, Company of Heroes. I can keep going, but you get the idea.

From an unbiased view, TAK is a really bad and unoriginal game with more flaws than you can count on your hands.

This is the total opposite of balance. TAK is probably one of the most broken RTS games ever created. The difference in power from each race is staggering.

The notion that each race has its advantages is completely ignorant of the game and how it's actually played. Veruna has absolutely nothing on any of the other races when it comes to aquatic maps, Veruna is actually the worst race to use on water maps. The only thing that you can say Veruna has on water maps is mobility, but even that is shot to shit by Zhon. Creon completely dominates the ship war, Zhon dominates the unit war, Taros and Aramon don't give a shit about your water because everything gets blown up.

Creon is horrible on large maps, they are too slow at expanding to take advantage of it. Creon is actually probably the best race to use on small scale maps. Large land maps are dominated by Veruna and Taros because they can actually expand fast enough to completely mana starve the other races. The only way to stop Veruna and Taros from completely controlling the map is to pick Aramon and rush their builders. This is why Veruna is used the most on CD/DC maps where map control is everything, Taros comes in second because they have the fastest build time on their lodes which lets them expand insanely fast.

This pretty much just tells me you know nothing about high level play in TAK. 80% of the units in TAK are completely useless, COMPLETELY USELESS.

Veruna is actuallly pretty good in the unit area(3 useless), as-well as Aramon(3 useless). The problem begins when you get to Zhon and Taros who have so many units that are just not worth building when you can get better options for cheaper, faster, and provide more map control. I'd make a list, but it'd take a while to layout the numbers.

TAK is the most unbalanced RTS game I've ever played, and I've played a lot of RTS games at a high level.

TAK has the MK:D syndrome, completely fucking broken beyond comprehension, but insanely fun to play.

White, you are either an unintelligent being who does not live in reality or you lie on purpose:

* Starcraft has 3 different races (Protoss, Terrans, Zerg), not 5 like TA:K.
Age of Mythology has 4(Greeks, Atlanteans, Egyptians, Norse), not 5.
Axis & Allies has 5 (if you mean the 2004 version), as many as TA:K.
Battle Realms has 4(Dragon, Serpent, Wolf, Lotus), not 5.
C&C has 2 or 3 different fractions (according to the version), not 5.
Company of Heroes has actually 2 fractions (axis, allies) not 5.
* Not only every single game you have mentioned has failed to have a number of races greater than 5, but the
gameplay of those races is not as different as the gameplay of TA:K races. Does any of these include an
I-do-not-use-buildings race, like Zhon? Does any of these include such a water-based race like Veruna? Does
any of these include a race which has no navy and artillery, but powerful area-of-effect fire spells like Taros?
Does any of these include a starting monarch, a holy dragon and a deity as special units? I think not...
* Would you like to mention the unbalances of other RTS games you have already mentioned (like Age of Mythology,
Command & Conquer, even Company of Heroes)? When a noob's strategy doesn't work well, he or she claims that
"the game is unbalanced", "those units are useless", "that race is overpowered" and "these units are broken".
WHEN SOMEONE LOSES ON A VIDEO GAME, HE OR SHE CLAIMS IT IS THE FAULT OF THE GAME IN ORDER NOT
TO ACCEPT THE FAILURE OF HIS OR HER STRATEGY!!! I have seen it countless times. Some people even claim that
chess is unbalance or game of luck when they lose (OMG, I have seen that happening).
* Please mention the 80% of the TOTALLY USELESS units in TA:K and I swear a great player can beat you with those!
* Veruna IS the best race in most of aquatic maps (Creon comes second). If you wish, we can have a match on a
water map, I will take Veruna and you should take something else.
* The only thing in which I agree with you is that TA:K is extremely fun to play. By the time TA:K is an extremely fun
game, it IS a successful game.
* What's the matter with people like you and Clay? If you are such a skilled player, White, then come back to prove it
and do not run away like a coward, for TA:K's sake!!!!!!



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:41 am



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:37 pm

ARTHAN wrote:


White, you are either an unintelligent being who does not live in reality or you lie on purpose:

* Starcraft has 3 different races (Protoss, Terrans, Zerg), not 5 like TA:K.
Age of Mythology has 4(Greeks, Atlanteans, Egyptians, Norse), not 5.
Axis & Allies has 5 (if you mean the 2004 version), as many as TA:K.
Battle Realms has 4(Dragon, Serpent, Wolf, Lotus), not 5.
C&C has 2 or 3 different fractions (according to the version), not 5.
Company of Heroes has actually 2 fractions (axis, allies) not 5.

Your argument was that games can't make races original and all the races are basically the same. Number of Races != Quality.



ARTHAN wrote:
* Not only every single game you have mentioned has failed to have a number of races greater than 5, but the
gameplay of those races is not as different as the gameplay of TA:K races. Does any of these include an
I-do-not-use-buildings race, like Zhon? Does any of these include such a water-based race like Veruna? Does
any of these include a race which has no navy and artillery, but powerful area-of-effect fire spells like Taros?
Does any of these include a starting monarch, a holy dragon and a deity as special units? I think not...

Because if they had that then they wouldn't be an original game... Is this a serious retort? Wtf?


ARTHAN wrote:
* Would you like to mention the unbalances of other RTS games you have already mentioned (like Age of Mythology,
Command & Conquer, even Company of Heroes)? When a noob's strategy doesn't work well, he or she claims that
"the game is unbalanced", "those units are useless", "that race is overpowered" and "these units are broken".
WHEN SOMEONE LOSES ON A VIDEO GAME, HE OR SHE CLAIMS IT IS THE FAULT OF THE GAME IN ORDER NOT
TO ACCEPT THE FAILURE OF HIS OR HER STRATEGY!!! I have seen it countless times. Some people even claim that
chess is unbalance or game of luck when they lose (OMG, I have seen that happening).

Scarcraft is probably the most balanced RTS game ever created.

Age of Mythology started out pretty unbalanced (Isis raped everything) but then it was balanced by patches, something TAK failed to do with their patches.

As for your argument about Scrubs crying about losing, that has no ground at all. You do not balance a game based on the lowest level of play, that's idiotic. You look at the highest level and see what works and what doesn't work, scrubs crying about someone grabbing them 5 times in a row in a fighting game is irrelevant because they don't know how the game works.



ARTHAN wrote:
* Please mention the 80% of the TOTALLY USELESS units in TA:K and I swear a great player can beat you with those!

Zhon:

Sacred Fire: This unit is on the fringe, early game it's completely useless as the mana upkeep is just not worth the unit it's healing. The heal cost is insane when you tie in the fact that Zhon's mana costs and build times are so high and the fact that they have to put out a consistent stream of micro and macro to even slightly compete with the other races. End game it's value is a little better, but it's still a struggle of mana management and generally I'd rather use the mana it spends to heal the unit to just make another.

Goblin: The cost and build times are decent but that's about it. Weakest unit in the game as it dies too fast to be used for what it's good at(destroying buildings). To effectively use it you need at least 7-10 of them, then you need tier 3 to even get them to where they need to go because if you try to march them in they will just die. For the sake of argument let's say you drop 10 in a base on a barracks. By the time they kill the barracks they are dead. So you spend 1k+3.5k+3.5k+900 to kill something worth 1k. Completely illogical and a waste of mana. Trolls are a better option if you're going to tier 1 drop.

Bats: Build time is too long for a bird, there are better units to scout with.

Kraken: Useless, costs too much, does nothing and then dies. Kind of decent at killing ships if you have a few of them, but not worth the cost.

Harpy: Another unit on the fringe. Harpy's are actually pretty good early-mid game when your opponent doesn't have much AA, but they just have too many flaws. Their cost is decent if you can can a unit with every charge, but that's generally not possible and it depends on what you're capturing. They're completely useless when your opponent gets some kind of AA to which you're forced to spend even more mana to create more units so you can hide the harpy's in them which is OK I guess, but you're really not going to capture anything worthwhile and the cost to create all the other units and the harpy's doesn't even out to what you capture. It's a fringe unit, good in SOME situation, but generally it's pretty useless if the game drags on.

Wisp: Has one use and doesn't even do that right. Cost is decent, build time is too long, damage is too low, health is too low, has attack issues. Wisp's are pretty decent lodestone killers, 4 of them can sweep a map and rape mana pretty fast if you can get them to attack it which is a god send for Zhon on spread maps, but they're too risky. More often than not you can't even get them to attack. If you're lucky you can make them worth the cost you spent, 4 Wisps that attack are seriously annoying to an opponents mana. However it's not worth the risk, 4k mana spent on a unit that might not even attack puts a big hole in your mana that you could have used on something more reliable. Generally useless.

Barracuda: Cost too high, build time too high, health too low. Swamp beasts outclass them in every aspect, there's no reason to get a Barracuda over a Swamp Beast.



Taros:

Weather Witch: Fringe unit, Cost is good, build time is good. Does what it's suppose to, but it's unreliable and is put into a niche of surprise attacks. Good unit if you can get one early, but otherwise is falls off and is outclassed by other units. The cast time on Blizzard is insane and the fact that it dies in one hit doesn't help. You'll generally never get to Blizzard something unless you're in Fog. Decent unit, but there are better and more reliable options.

Iron Beak: You need a group of them to do anything significant, attack animation is pitiful, attack timer is pitiful, damage is decent, cost is horrible when you tie in the fact that you need a group of them, build time is slightly long. Iron Beaks are like Wisps with a more reliable attack, they're great lodestone hunters, but fail at everything else. They're easily kited and they die in 2 hits. There are better options.

Rictus: Another fringe unit, the only thing they have going for them is that they can go over mountains and water and they hurt like all hell. Cost is too high, build time is too long, damage is great, health is too low, range is really bad. Rictus have a niche role, they're good damage dealers and are great vs Monarchs. They just cost too much and die too fast to pick them over Fire Demons.

Dark Hand: Worthless, costs too much, there are better options. I've tried a few strategies to make Dark Hands viable and the only one that SLIGHTLY worked was dropping them into a base, but they really don't do anything. Ressing is pointless when the unit you ressed is a 0 mana lich that does nothing. Dark Hands might be a decent option if the lich had full mana when you ressed it, but currently it's useless and there are far better options to spend 2.6k on.

Lich: Lich's are useless in all but 2 situation. Their cost is good, damage is good vs buildings and horrible vs units and they hurt your own units, their build time is INSANE when you take in the fact that you have to let them sit around and gather mana. Lich are a niche unit only viable when paired with a Zhon partner. Lich drops are probably the strongest drop in the game and completely destroys your opponents. If you can drop 5+ in their base you will win the game. This is only possible in 2v2+ matches and as such, Lich are completely worthless in 1v1 situations.

Kamikaze Rat: I'm probably going to get some "WTF RATS ARE AWESOME" remarks to this, but Rats are pretty worthless. Their cost is decent, but the time invested in making them and letting them gather mana is just dumb, not to mention the fact that you need a group of them to even do damage. Their damage is ok depending on what you're aiming for and who you're against but to even get their mana cost you need to kill some high priority targets with them. You need to kill 1.4k mana worth of unit(s) for each rat you have or it wasn't worth the investment. Niche unit.


Sky Knight: Cost too high, Build time too long. If you can get a lot of them their good, but by the time you get enough it's late game and your opponent has AA and you generally won't use them for anything other than hiding an FA inside them. They're an OK unit, but their cost and build time is just too high.


Half of Taro's units are not worth building because there are better options that do more for less, or do it better.


Veruna:

Amazon Knights: Muskets are abetter option
Lihr stone thing: Priests are a better option.
Centaur: Muskets are a better option


Aramon:

Ark : Worthless
Rolling Tower: Worthless, good vs birds, costs too much, better options.
Assassin: kills 1 unit and dies, not worth it if the unit you kill is less than 1.5k.
Grenadier: Worthless.

ARTHAN wrote:
* Veruna IS the best race in most of aquatic maps (Creon comes second). If you wish, we can have a match on a
water map, I will take Veruna and you should take something else.

Incorrect

Zhon:
Swamp beasts kill everything of Veruna's, Ships/Mers/Monarch/Whatever.

Taros:

Taros does not care if you go in the water, you will not come close because Taros will out range you.

Aramon:

Same as Taros, does not care if you go in the water because will out range you.

Creon:

Better ships, mers can be frozen.


ARTHAN wrote:

* What's the matter with people like you and Clay? If you are such a skilled player, White, then come back to prove it
and do not run away like a coward, for TA:K's sake!!!!!!

There are better and more active games.


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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:47 pm



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:05 pm



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:25 pm

Oh my God.. hahaha i cant believe in what i just read about the tak units. The only thing i did here was laugh. hahaha
Man, with all respect but are you out of your mind???

Starting with Zhon.


If you want play Zhon at least i can say that in 3rd party maps we need a Totem and a Sacred fire to keep it for a while. Is what hold you in begining, that is default tatic.

About Goblins, is much more effective drop a goblin than a troll. If you are going to drop something to destroy a Building of course it will be Swamp beast, Jungle Orc or Goblins, that is the less expansive and fastest. You can use them when you dont have time to builde other ones.

Bats are really a problem but, if you have to patrol your area you need something. Other units dont have same effective speed and turn rate. Bats are harder to beat, but i dont disagree that maybe the best option is a Gryphon.

Harpy you are too much contradictory if you were talking about units COMPLETELY USELESS.

The other 3 i may agree with you. Make counts 3 units of how much??? Just with Zhon, and i guess that doesnt even come on 10%


Taros

I just read the name units, and i denied to keep reading about tar when i saw Wheater Wich first.
I will make a general idea that i have. I guess you dont care about Air forces right??? you just took them off.
And also the kamikase rats you think that they dont worth, well i guess you never need them. Many here will agree with me, rats can save lifes. lol Your units, towers never got attacked by some dark hands i suppose.
About others once again i see you were a bit contradictory in the meaning COMPLETELY USELESS.


Veruna

Centaurs have much more resistance then Musketeers, for someone that used that kind of weakness to set some units as useless that could be count for this one right. Amazons are great to pursuit fast units, they are better to infiltrate and destroy buildings.
Pillar of light, once again you come with that kind of effective thing, so you would build some 5 priest of lihr that take ages than some pillar of lights??? ok then


Aramon

Ark i completely agree, nothing more. Rolling Tower, really???you never used with titans and some aco??? You need some criativity man. lol
Grenadier, yes maybe i never used that much to know.


Now almost of units you said, you set them in some situation. Ok, now in my opinion, if you need in some situation that can "worth it", isnt COMPLETELY USELESS. Some of this units maybe are not good options in a 1v1 (but still can be used), but if you play a 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 (that is what i suppose the best games) you will certainly use them. So i dont see them as COMPLETELY USELESS nor USELESS as you said, they are strategic units. If you cant see that im sorry, i think you dont know everything as you said, and you were'nt that good player.

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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:32 pm

Noobhawk...i guess you felt like me and start to laugh reading this i guess many did. I couldnt contained myself. lmao
This...omg i cant stop laugh lmao

I even got to log on in here in my work to post. A completely contradictory post.

I'm not usual to use this words or disrespect no one, but this just could be a joke. I'm sorry White, but you crossed the line. I'm sorry if i disrescpect you but this was too much for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:37 pm



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:38 pm

i dont care who are you white but most what you wrote is fucking BULLSHIT

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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:43 pm

I must defend clay this time. I'm sry Noob but he wouldnt give you all that attention lol
just a jk :p
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:46 pm



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:58 pm

well idk...but his post make me post. Maybe it was useful for that, nothing more.
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:58 pm

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was ViP 5 times, have won multiple tournaments, and had a 90% win rate. really, I have no idea what I'm saying.

None of you have backed up your claims with math, actual unit statistics that show without a doubt how good a unit is. All I see is "Nope you're wrong because I've used that unit before and it worked!"

You can ignore it all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the math proves it. There are units that are completely useless to get because 1. They cost too much, 2. They are outclassed by a different unit. It's as simple as that.

You can not spend 10k Mana on a rolling tower, and have it kill 5k mana worth of units and go "EVEN TRADE!" It doesn't fucking work that way.

Myst wrote:
i dont care who are you white but most what you wrote is fucking BULLSHIT

I'm Kaiser.
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:10 pm



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PostSubject: FU-CK YEA   Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:39 pm



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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:58 pm

OMG! I had so many things to say, however most of what I had to say have been already mentioned by Noobhawk (Landherr), Angel3b and Myst. I just want to add the following:
* The reason TA:K has a single and infinite resource, known as 'mana', is to enable creativity during your game. If a unit does a small thing but you need that thing in order to win or to survive the match, you should build that unit even if it is not 'mana effective'. The amazing thing about mana is that it needs management (in order not to run out of it) but it also allows you to waste it like hell in some cases (in order to win or to turn the tide of a nasty situation).
* Just a few more info about some units and races:
-[1]- Giant Barracuda is a naval melee machine of destruction. If it gets close to a ship and it cannot escape, the ship will be raped. Giant Barracuda is also an excellent Mer Warrior/ Swamp Beast killer (just try it, it is both fun and effective!).
-[2]- Krakens are excellent ship destroyers, the main Zhonian naval unit and the mainstream answer against Verunan fleets.
-[3]- Veruna is the best aquatic race mostly because of its naval variety. It has the cheap and fast Skiff, The average Harpoon Ship, the powerful Man of War, the defensive Water Tower, the offensive Trebuchet Ship, the builder Flagship, the factory Sea Fort and the excellent Transport Ship. Not to mention the Mer Warriors and Kirenna herself!
-[4]- Wisps are the most agile offensive air unit in the game. Good speed and excellent turning rate, perfect for micromanagement!
-[5]- The Dark Hand is extremely effective against large numbers of tier 1 units. I remember one of those ninjas slaughtering a dozen of my Warriors fairly easy.
-[6]- Iron Beaks are very good "bombard airplanes". In large numbers, they wipe out bases in seconds.
When people like White hang around, i feel less like a Noob and more like an expert player, lol!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:00 pm

Now this is the kind of post I'm talking about, constructive arguments instead of mindless rabble.

NOOBHAWK wrote:
That doesn't mean the unit is useless. Sometimes you do have mana enough to heal. Example:
Aramon vs Zhon. You wanna place a Death Totem to protect a mana spot (considering it's spread mana map), but you cant keep your monarch around and (also do not have builder to heal the totem if necessary, even tho sacred fire would be still better). But you know Elsin will take it down with 3 meteors because each meteor deals 2200 damage (total 6600) and a Death Totem has 6430 "hp". So if you have mana the sacred fire around the totem it will recover the Totem and it wont die when Elsin wastes 900 mana with 3 meteors. Gives you time to move ur units like Spirit Wolfs, Hunters, Thirsha, etc. to approach the mon. Thats a lot of math to tell the obvious, Sacred Fire is far from being useless. It's a good advantage for Zhon not only in this situation but in many others.

Puts you too far in the hole, in-fact it's actually counter intuitive to use Sacred Fires.

This is an actual game I had against Instructor where he used a Gate(Not fully built) to block the totems attacks and kept hitting the totem without killing it. It drained my mana so fast I wasn't able to keep up so I had to destroy it.

Sacred Fires are just too risky for what they do. It's a good unit in very few situations, and a negative unit in way more. It's just not worth the risk.



NOOBHAWK wrote:
1st, you consider mana too much,so starting using ur brain. Even if you waste 3k mana but is able to prevent ur enemy from using his mana by killing his cabal (worth 2k, not 1k - dumb) you still get the upper hand and its obvious. 10 goblins will take even a temple in instants (like 4 seconds). 3 goblins r enough to take down a barrack, enclave or whatever rly quick. Sometimes u dont even need a roc, just MICRO MACRO whatever u wanna call it and avoid coliding with units sinec goblin is quick (this is a brain-use time, dont just patrol ur units). Sometimes u wanna drop rly quick and dont have mana so u go for lord with tamer and thirsha and leave handler stuffing up goblins. There are NO better options if u dont have mana to waste, and even if u have goblin is insanely strong against buildings and its worth if u MICRO MACRO WHATEVER well enough to avoid getting the goblins hit (there might even be no defense if u have some radar and awareness skills and etc). Enough...


Mana management is vastly important in TAK, the difference between someone at +165/-164 and someone +170/-168 is huge. Your example of using 3k to kill 2k worth of stuff is a net loss of -1k. That means your opponent is ahead 1k mana worth of units/structures, the only case where this is a good thing is if it's a Monarch that you're killing.

Goblins are strong, I'm not denying that. I'm saying it's not worth the cost to send them in to die in 2 seconds. You can not micro goblins into enemy territory, they will die before they can do anything, it's just not viable spending that much mana on a goblin drop for them to be killed before they can do anything. You wasted mana and time building them for no reason.



NOOBHAWK wrote:
build time can be reduced if ur thirsha isnt busy. sometimes there are no better units to scout with like when u just have handler and u have no time. gryphon is a big unit to scout with (and would be the only "cheap" unit - rofl 4 5x more expensive) and will be hitten more easier. Like angel said, bat's turn rate and etc (check units stats) is insane compared to ANY OTHER UNIT inthe game, so if you MICRO MACRO WHATEVER u can make it last like forever. BTW it's buildtime is just 4s 5s longer than parrot and spyhawk.

Possibly.

NOOBHAWK wrote:
if u keep considering only cost you will not even move a finger and wont even bet an AI. in games u gotta try, u might fail first, but keep trying and trying and thats it, if everything was predefined there would be no margin for using brain. so if u dont wanna use ur brain u should actually play Starcraft thats so balanced that it is boring and predictable.
about the kraken, lol: its not only useful to kill ships, it kills air units too, and wont miss because the numbers on units stats says so, like its weapon velocity and turn rate is crazy, along with the fact that its a guided atk. wont miss even birds - prevent enemies from scouting (like trebing builders).
CREATIVITY, BRAIN. FARRRRR from useless

Cost is everything when there are better units. Your ignorance of Starcraft is nonsensical as it's a vastly harder game to play than TAK. You need a 300APM to even compete in the highlevels of Starcraft where TAK requires like 100. Krakens die too fast and cost too much to use it as a bird killer, Gryphons are better at it and are harder to kill.




NOOBHAWK wrote:
actually harpy is some of the most useful units of zhon. u dont want only to capture and roc it up for example. sometimes u go in undefended places to steal too. sometimes u just want to convert that bunch of cannonners and make them blow themselves up. 1 harpy costs 2k and a half. stone giant costs 4k. you capture 1 stone OH THERE YOU GO WITH UR CRAPY MATH. not useless, just the other way. good in a lot of situations if u have a brain and think


Unprotected cannons is probably the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. I won't say you're wrong, but the situations are so linear it's redundant. Hapry's chance to capture a unit is around 50%, Stone giants kill harpy's in 1 hit and have like 4x their range, totally redundant comparison. Anyway I said it really depends what you're capturing and the point in the game. Harpies are useless late game.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
sometimes u only have lord and has few mana to build a drake thats double the cost of a wisp. so what do u do if u wanna take lodestones, or even unprotected mortars or trebs but u dont wanna risk ur thirsha if u even still have it, wisp is sneak and u can even kill birds if u know a skill that was poorly used by clay and some others but was still a skill and even tho it can and is used better than they initially did, im just saying that wisp has uses. and sometimes u dont have options. imagine even the stupid situations where u want to protect ur beast lord that is running for something. using shadow/ghost/etc (do u even know it? probably not) or not, wisp may be handy in some difficult terrains and may be the only option to save ur lord and make u win that lost game
CREATIVITY, unlike in starcraft, in tak u can use ur brain

Wisps have the worst attack timer in the game. Where as Drakes actually attack at a decent rate and put out consistent damage. You're risking too much on the Wisp to attack the lode and hoping there isn't AA anywhere near it. Wisps really need their Attack timer fixed, this is not debatable. The odds of getting your Wisp to actually attack is so low it's pointless to build them.

As for charging the Wisp before, ok you get 1 attack and then it's not going to do anything after that 1 attack because again, their attack timer sucks.

NOOBHAWK wrote:
i already said 1 use. barracuda has a property in its units statistics "cantbefrozen=1", that means it wont be killed by neo dragons (or even mechanics,e.g) and may be useful in many situations, like when u dont even have a handler around, like when u have a lot of mana and have an idle shaman to make use of and maybe u need as much meele in water as possible. etcetcetc... context... brain... use it

Don't need to freeze something that dies before it can kill whatever it's trying to kill. Cost outweighs it's benefits(Which are nonexistent)





NOOBHAWK wrote:
ok ur probably a player of original and darien crusades maps. u know the shit load amount of mana in sewers and sometimes cabals and executioners and etc arent enough to win a game, so u can build temples and abyss, sometimes temples too long for what u want. so u go, build an abyss, build iron beaks and use it to take down not only lodestones, but lighthouse, bastions, strongholds, (if u r smart enough even unprotected "factorys", trebs, canons) whatever. its totally different than wisp, theres totally no comparation


Die too fast to be useful for anything other than mana hunting. Crossbows on Move != Fight will kill them by themselves, not to mention the guard towers.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
lol u rly contradict urself, it means its not useless so u saved me from enumerate a hundred uses for rictus.


No, Rictus are useless, Their benefits do not outweigh their negatives and Fire Demons are better in every situation.

Quote :
Dark Hand: Worthless, costs too much, there are better options. I've tried a few strategies to make Dark Hands viable and the only one that SLIGHTLY worked was dropping them into a base, but they really don't do anything. Ressing is pointless when the unit you ressed is a 0 mana lich that does nothing. Dark Hands might be a decent option if the lich had full mana when you ressed it, but currently it's useless and there are far better options to spend 2.6k on.

NOOBHAWK wrote:
if u have a brain and dont just CTRL build dark hands, make only 1, then keep animating shit where theres a "war", or after u wave a bunch of units. it also cant be frozen so its good against opponent(s) that might freeze ur \"***\" up. also cant be stoned so u might drop it instead of blade if u know ur oppenent has basilisk or an attentive acolyte. also good atk damage and healtime, so if u use it well u can make it last forever. thats high level playing


Cost and build times are too high, 2 Blade Demons do more for less.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
dumb asshole, its cheap, sneaky, sometimes the only option. and u can even have it for free using dark hands. u care so much about mana management so there u go...

Lich's are not sneaky and are never the only option. Fire spouts are better in nearly every situation. Lich's are only good for twi things and that's drops and ships.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
i wont read every shit u say so ill make it brief: u care so much for mana it costs much less than a treb

1 Rat won't kill a treb, especially when it's surrounded by Titans.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
kills thirsha well, u can use it t block units too in air traffic. anyway 1000000 uses. i give up writing a book like i said

Everything kills Thirsha, Gargoyles are cheaper and built faster if you want to block air units. Sky Knights cost too much and take too long to build.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
Amazon Knights: cant be frozen, are FAST, sneaky, etcetcetcetc
No, they are not fast at all, they are not sneaky either and they do no damage. Cost out weighs their value of being un-freezable.

NOOBHAWK wrote:
Lihr stone thing: has an isane radius (550 against priest of lihr's 200) to heals multiple things at once, and u dont need to keep track of builders around. especially when u're hell busy in an insane treb war for example. just mention one use, using math, so not useless proven by units stats and brain-using
Build time and cost are too high, the cost of healing multiple units is too high for the upkeep unless you're on some mana explosion map.

NOOBHAWK wrote:
Centaur: Muskets are a better option
not against fast air units. centaurs r tough and deal good damage with their guided arrow. even kills scout units better than muskets. r faster much faster than muskets too.
There are better units to skill scouts, the cost is too high to use them for killing birds or whatever. Muskets are better because you can pump out more for less and do more damage.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
Ark : Worthless ONLY if u r an ordinary player and never play different maps. ark's capacity is insane but of course war galley can do the same, buit its worth mentioning. along with the fact that u might build a ship with elsin to move quickly given some situation (context, brain) theres also this very very particular situation that only freak ppl that decorated units stats now:
theres something called transport distance. like how far can u load and unload units. 419 against 300 of war galley. so imagine that the only aramon's option to land units without taking the time to go keep then building acolyte then building flying builder then building outside, is the ark coz war galley cant make it fore some odd reason. so there goes ark with its insane transport capacity and transport distance. unique in the game. it can also defend ur elsin in some odd situations when its close to water. it can also blocka kirenna trying to run away across some water passage, u might even kill her only because of it. etcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetc
you're retarded.



NOOBHAWK wrote:
Assassin: stone giant is around 4k, 2 hits go down. acolyte 1 hit and is much more expensive. etcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetc there u go with ur shit mana management. not to mention that assassin is insane against zhon and etc drops
Assassin will die before killing a stone giant.




NOOBHAWK wrote:
wont survive to kirenna's wave. kirenna kills thirsha, kirenna kills everything of zhon. mers warriors are half the cost of an swamp beast, and u can have multiple enclaves much easier than multiple handlers. what is even more useful in large scale "wars". it depends very much on map, kraken r good, rocs too, but dirigibles too, depend on players, map, situations etetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetcetc, its not predefined, i can very well kick ur \"***\" with both zhon or veruna, it varies.


Predefined scenario's do not happen, too many variables. Swamp Beasts own Veruna there is no debating this.

NOOBHAWK wrote:
veruna might have the whole map before u even attempt to do anything. treb ships will out range anything


Incorrect, Taros has the fastest expand time in the game.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
mer warriors will take care of war galleys. and depending on situation veruna might take the whole map and aramon might have no mana to outrange (treb) veruna, gg


You will not get anywhere near Aramon.


NOOBHAWK wrote:
doesnt have treb ships, veruna has anti air ships. kirenna can prevent creon from teching up, so mer isnt outruled. but it depends on situation MAN, its not predefined. TAK varies and thats what is awesome, u never ged bored.


Cannons have longer range than Treb ships, you won't get close to creon.


ARTHAN wrote:

* What's the matter with people like you and Clay? If you are such a skilled player, White, then come back to prove it
and do not run away like a coward, for TA:K's sake!!!!!!
honestly i feel sorry for white, hes actually not a coward, he simply stand no chance and its much wise not to play since he only cares about recognition and looks like his life is about recognition in stupid games. at least clay is actually a good player. but he has his cheating, smurfing and talking shit issues, so hes afraid to show up.

I do not play because I have no reason to play, I have nothing to prove. All I'm doing is correcting misguided information.

Also, I beat Clay all the time, not once has he cheated against me.
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PostSubject: Re: Why TA:K is the best RTS ever?   Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:54 am

White wrote:


None of you have backed up your claims with math, actual unit statistics that show without a doubt how good a unit is. All I see is "Nope you're wrong because I've used that unit before and it worked!"

You can ignore it all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the math proves it. There are units that are completely useless to get because 1. They cost too much, 2. They are outclassed by a different unit. It's as simple as that.

You can not spend 10k Mana on a rolling tower, and have it kill 5k mana worth of units and go "EVEN TRADE!" It doesn't fucking work that way.


Ok you say about math, i say about practical. Yes my arguments (if you consider as one) is just that. I guess that if in a game it work it worth the build and investment. I dont say this just for me, i say that many players use them, and if correctly use it it worth. They are not outclassed each unit has his peculiarity. Yes i can spend 10k in mana if i am able, first of all it depends of the situation of the game. Games aren't same, races aren't same and players aren't same. You can put maths in this too.
So maybe i am not the better to discuss this with you once that our arguments are based in diferent facts.

And plz tell me more now about the completely useless lich, that you mentionated in other post, btw a very good one.

Maybe you are trying to clear something to us, but this matter isnt that easy to put just in math counts. Just my opinion.
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